More dreck about the ultimate products: I've got Ortlieb Backrollers on my Bianchi San Jose (set up SS) that I did some loaded (flat) touring with and have used for groceries. In response to a previous poster having issues with panniers bouncing off, these ones won't. They're a bit heavy though. You can set them right to the back of the rack - I think I've hit them a couple of times with my heel but nothing major, push 'em back and they are fine for me. I really start missing gears though when loaded down with groceries and having to face hills...