Both Ok......take more than a 100kgs of Tiger & his steel frame to bust up 'carbon'!....i didn't come down, (must be something to those racing skills after all!)....Tiger lost a bit of bark......maybe a few scratches on the THYLACINE special....but no obvious damage........But the 486 (sob)...did I mention that I bent the farkin' derailuer hanger & a spoke?....good excuse for a new frame I reckon!

Hitchy