Thanks jitensha for doing what I was too lazy to do myself... all good points. I've ridden nice NJS frames on the street and I'd rather have slightly burlier tubing for a daily rider, I think most other people would want the same if they ride hard... and a lot of keirin bikes are DB 4130 /, Kaisei 019/022 (lower to middle range tubes) as well ,not the really high end stuff like Genius, 753, 853 and 8630.