Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
...many former Ishiwata employees are involved in Kaisei.
Yes.
It surprises me that JohnDThompson didn't notice almost those exact words in my post on the subject.
Let's see...I actually copied the following from UBI's site:
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"Kaisei tubing is a direct descendent of Ishiwata, a Japanese company that established a significant reputation in the market for high-end steel bicycle tubing in the 1970's and 1980's. When Ishiwata closed its doors in 1993, Kaisei became home to many of Ishiwata's most experienced employees and also took over its butted tube manufacturing process. Kaisei currently holds a 60 per cent share of Japan's elite Keirin frame building market.""
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
Kaisei's tubing is directly modeled after the Ishiwata tubing produced in the 70s and 80s...
The Kaisei tubing is fine tubing, but so was was the Ishiwata tubing of the 80s...
JohnDThompson's words, above, imply, in their deep structure, that JohnDThompson perhaps believes that Kaisei's tubing has not improved from the standards of the 1980's.
I addressed this at length in my two posts on this exact subject.
Originally Posted by Ken Cox
Steel production technology, and especially so in Japan and in some European and American low-volume mills, has improved dramatically and steadily over the years.
And I think Japan has a long tradition of producing the finest steel in the world.
From United Bicycle Institute's site:
"
Kaisei tubing is a direct descendent of Ishiwata, a Japanese company that established a significant reputation in the market for high-end steel bicycle tubing in the 1970's and 1980's. When Ishiwata closed its doors in 1993, Kaisei became home to many of Ishiwata's most experienced employees and also took over its butted tube manufacturing process. Kaisei currently holds a 60 per cent share of Japan's elite Keirin frame building market."
4130 steel has existed in some form for probably over a hundred years, gaining initial use in the firearms industry because of its toughness and resiliance.
However, the process of producing, shaping and heat-treating steel, regardless of type or composition, has constantly improved.
Kaisei's bottom-of-the-line quad-butted 4130 tube set weighs 1970g, before cutting to dimension.
I can't find a weight for Kaisei's 8630 tube set, which corresponds to a Chrome-Moly-Nickel steel, and which, interestingly, the Germans also manufacture as an industrial knife steel, and which John Greco, an American knife-maker uses exclusively because of its toughness and resiliance.
As for Columbus sl, a quick google search found several sites that compared Columbus sl to Reynolds 531, a steel now considered obsolete for a variety of reasons.
From a highly respected technical site:
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Columbus is also a long-time maker of tubing. SL was very popular in the 80s and is similar in characteristics to Reynolds 531.
Reynolds has made their "531" tubing for nearly forever, literally dating back to the 1920s or 1930s. It's not actually chrome-moly tubing, but the material properties are similar."
http://sfcyclotouring.blogspot.com/2...ke-frames.html
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One of the most successful older steels was Reynolds "531", a manganese-molybdenum alloy steel...Reynolds 531 has now been largely replaced in new frames by still-better steels...More common now is 4130 ChroMoly or similar alloys."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_frame
New and better manufacturing methods have made 4130, an otherwise older steel, superior to 531.
Further, Columbus sl corresponds to Reynolds 531 and not to Reynolds 631.
Reynolds 631 represents a major improvement over 531 and the other tubing steels of the 531 era.
Tubing from the 1970's and 80's has no relevance in comparison to modern tubing except for its nostalgic or historical value.
In terms of metallurgy, I doubt if any of the Japanese tubes compare in terms of strength-to-weight ratios to True Temper's, Reynold's and Columbus's best offerings, but they do compare favorably in quality of manufacture.
And
Originally Posted by Ken Cox
Well, let's discuss this xenophobia, or, more specifically, in regards to the Japanese, Nipponphobia.
Some of this will fly in the face of what we have learned from the movies, from government propaganda (school), and "Uncle Joe."
Prior to WWII, Japan produced the finest machine tools and steel in the world, and very cost-effectively.
America and Britain could not compete with Japan on the world market, in terms of quality and price, but especially in terms of quality.
Following WWII, the Japanese literally had nothing except burned-out urban rubble and farms operated by surviving mothers, wives and daughters.
In order to rebuild, Japan needed cash flow, and with few production resources, Japan chose and filled the very bottom production niche of the cheapest goods possible (late 1940's and early 1950's).
That said, by the early 1960's, Japanese industry had regained its feet, and had re-established itself as the quality center of the planet.
Anyone who wanted a specific product produced to the absolutely highest standards would contract with Japanese manufacturers to produce that product.
In the American firearms industry, Browning, for example, contracted with Japanese machine shops to produce specialty firearms for the collector market (the Browning/Winchester Model 1892 comes to mind).
When it comes to Japanese quality today, I think it will suffice to simply say Honda, Acura, Toyota, Lexus, Subaru, and Mazda.
Regarding Japanese bicycle tubing, the Keirin NJS market requires lugged construction, and so the Japanese have not attempted to develop so-called "air-hardening" steels (which have no real use outside of the TIG-welding process) and, instead, have focused on very clean (low impurity and low inclusion) low-alloy (the best steels have less than 2% non-iron ingredients) steels; and, the Japanese have focused on the tubing fabrication process so as to make seamless tubing of very consistent and sophisticated dimensions (quad-butted, etc.).
Apart from "air-hardening" steel intended for TIG welding, the best bicycle tubing probably comes from Japan, although, I think the American manufacturer True Temper would hold up their flagship tubing, S3, as the best tubing for lugged and fillet-brazed construction.
I assume Columbus has a tubing comparable to True Temper S3 and the Japanese NJS steels, intended for lugged construction, but I don't know that much about Columbus tubing (I really only know what I read).
The Italians have thousands of years of good reputation as metal-workers and today many international manufacturers go to the Italians to have their metal prototypes made as proof of concept.
However, when it comes to quality of manufacturing, when quality matters most, the world goes to Japanese manufacturers and contracts with them.
Synopsizing from my posts above, the Japanese, who specialize in Keirin NJS frames, have not bothered to develop "air-hardening" steels, since they only make lugged frames and not TIG-welded frames; otherwise, current Japanese tubing matches or exceeds the qualities of that tubing made by other manufacturers specifically for lugged and fillet-brazed tubing; and, in evidence of this, please note that Kaisei, in its simplest steel tubing, 4130, offers quad-butted tubes.
When people mention that many of the former Ishiwata employees carried over to Kaisei, they do not do so to imply that Kaisei remains at the level of 1980's Ishiwata tubing, but, rather, to demonstrate that Kaisei has significant depth of experience.
And, again, in closing, "
Kaisei currently holds a 60 per cent share of Japan's elite Keirin frame building market."