Pista vs. Keirin
08-18-09 | 10:44 AM
#26
Beausage is Beautiful
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,504
Likes: 13
From: Saitama, Japan
Bikes: Nabiis Alchemy
<3 Ken bringing knowledge to a discussion of conjecture
08-18-09 | 09:28 PM
#28
Old fart
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 26,318
Likes: 5,230
From: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
For the best steel bike, I would choose a Japanese-fabricated frameset made of Japanese Kaisei tubing.
Even modest modern steel tubing, such as Kaisei's 4130, has better quality and strength to weight ratios compared to the best of vintage tubing.
I think Kaisei's top end 8630 tubing represents 60% of the tubing used for Keirin frames.
If I had the time to wait and the money (and if they'd make me a threadless fork), I'd go with a steel frame set from a Keirin maker over anything else available.
Even modest modern steel tubing, such as Kaisei's 4130, has better quality and strength to weight ratios compared to the best of vintage tubing.
I think Kaisei's top end 8630 tubing represents 60% of the tubing used for Keirin frames.
If I had the time to wait and the money (and if they'd make me a threadless fork), I'd go with a steel frame set from a Keirin maker over anything else available.
The Kaisei tubing is fine tubing, but so was was the Ishiwata tubing of the 80s, and the Tange, Columbus and Reynolds tubing for that matter.
08-18-09 | 10:26 PM
#29
King of the Hipsters
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,128
Likes: 2
From: Bend, Oregon
Bikes: Realm Cycles Custom
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
...many former Ishiwata employees are involved in Kaisei.
It surprises me that JohnDThompson didn't notice almost those exact words in my post on the subject.
Let's see...I actually copied the following from UBI's site:
""Kaisei tubing is a direct descendent of Ishiwata, a Japanese company that established a significant reputation in the market for high-end steel bicycle tubing in the 1970's and 1980's. When Ishiwata closed its doors in 1993, Kaisei became home to many of Ishiwata's most experienced employees and also took over its butted tube manufacturing process. Kaisei currently holds a 60 per cent share of Japan's elite Keirin frame building market.""
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
Kaisei's tubing is directly modeled after the Ishiwata tubing produced in the 70s and 80s...
The Kaisei tubing is fine tubing, but so was was the Ishiwata tubing of the 80s...
The Kaisei tubing is fine tubing, but so was was the Ishiwata tubing of the 80s...
I addressed this at length in my two posts on this exact subject.
Originally Posted by Ken Cox
Steel production technology, and especially so in Japan and in some European and American low-volume mills, has improved dramatically and steadily over the years.
And I think Japan has a long tradition of producing the finest steel in the world.
From United Bicycle Institute's site:
"Kaisei tubing is a direct descendent of Ishiwata, a Japanese company that established a significant reputation in the market for high-end steel bicycle tubing in the 1970's and 1980's. When Ishiwata closed its doors in 1993, Kaisei became home to many of Ishiwata's most experienced employees and also took over its butted tube manufacturing process. Kaisei currently holds a 60 per cent share of Japan's elite Keirin frame building market."
4130 steel has existed in some form for probably over a hundred years, gaining initial use in the firearms industry because of its toughness and resiliance.
However, the process of producing, shaping and heat-treating steel, regardless of type or composition, has constantly improved.
Kaisei's bottom-of-the-line quad-butted 4130 tube set weighs 1970g, before cutting to dimension.
I can't find a weight for Kaisei's 8630 tube set, which corresponds to a Chrome-Moly-Nickel steel, and which, interestingly, the Germans also manufacture as an industrial knife steel, and which John Greco, an American knife-maker uses exclusively because of its toughness and resiliance.
As for Columbus sl, a quick google search found several sites that compared Columbus sl to Reynolds 531, a steel now considered obsolete for a variety of reasons.
From a highly respected technical site:
"Columbus is also a long-time maker of tubing. SL was very popular in the 80s and is similar in characteristics to Reynolds 531.
Reynolds has made their "531" tubing for nearly forever, literally dating back to the 1920s or 1930s. It's not actually chrome-moly tubing, but the material properties are similar."
https://sfcyclotouring.blogspot.com/2...ke-frames.html
"One of the most successful older steels was Reynolds "531", a manganese-molybdenum alloy steel...Reynolds 531 has now been largely replaced in new frames by still-better steels...More common now is 4130 ChroMoly or similar alloys."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_frame
New and better manufacturing methods have made 4130, an otherwise older steel, superior to 531.
Further, Columbus sl corresponds to Reynolds 531 and not to Reynolds 631.
Reynolds 631 represents a major improvement over 531 and the other tubing steels of the 531 era.
Tubing from the 1970's and 80's has no relevance in comparison to modern tubing except for its nostalgic or historical value.
In terms of metallurgy, I doubt if any of the Japanese tubes compare in terms of strength-to-weight ratios to True Temper's, Reynold's and Columbus's best offerings, but they do compare favorably in quality of manufacture.
And I think Japan has a long tradition of producing the finest steel in the world.
From United Bicycle Institute's site:
"Kaisei tubing is a direct descendent of Ishiwata, a Japanese company that established a significant reputation in the market for high-end steel bicycle tubing in the 1970's and 1980's. When Ishiwata closed its doors in 1993, Kaisei became home to many of Ishiwata's most experienced employees and also took over its butted tube manufacturing process. Kaisei currently holds a 60 per cent share of Japan's elite Keirin frame building market."
4130 steel has existed in some form for probably over a hundred years, gaining initial use in the firearms industry because of its toughness and resiliance.
However, the process of producing, shaping and heat-treating steel, regardless of type or composition, has constantly improved.
Kaisei's bottom-of-the-line quad-butted 4130 tube set weighs 1970g, before cutting to dimension.
I can't find a weight for Kaisei's 8630 tube set, which corresponds to a Chrome-Moly-Nickel steel, and which, interestingly, the Germans also manufacture as an industrial knife steel, and which John Greco, an American knife-maker uses exclusively because of its toughness and resiliance.
As for Columbus sl, a quick google search found several sites that compared Columbus sl to Reynolds 531, a steel now considered obsolete for a variety of reasons.
From a highly respected technical site:
"Columbus is also a long-time maker of tubing. SL was very popular in the 80s and is similar in characteristics to Reynolds 531.
Reynolds has made their "531" tubing for nearly forever, literally dating back to the 1920s or 1930s. It's not actually chrome-moly tubing, but the material properties are similar."
https://sfcyclotouring.blogspot.com/2...ke-frames.html
"One of the most successful older steels was Reynolds "531", a manganese-molybdenum alloy steel...Reynolds 531 has now been largely replaced in new frames by still-better steels...More common now is 4130 ChroMoly or similar alloys."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_frame
New and better manufacturing methods have made 4130, an otherwise older steel, superior to 531.
Further, Columbus sl corresponds to Reynolds 531 and not to Reynolds 631.
Reynolds 631 represents a major improvement over 531 and the other tubing steels of the 531 era.
Tubing from the 1970's and 80's has no relevance in comparison to modern tubing except for its nostalgic or historical value.
In terms of metallurgy, I doubt if any of the Japanese tubes compare in terms of strength-to-weight ratios to True Temper's, Reynold's and Columbus's best offerings, but they do compare favorably in quality of manufacture.
Originally Posted by Ken Cox
Well, let's discuss this xenophobia, or, more specifically, in regards to the Japanese, Nipponphobia.
Some of this will fly in the face of what we have learned from the movies, from government propaganda (school), and "Uncle Joe."
Prior to WWII, Japan produced the finest machine tools and steel in the world, and very cost-effectively.
America and Britain could not compete with Japan on the world market, in terms of quality and price, but especially in terms of quality.
Following WWII, the Japanese literally had nothing except burned-out urban rubble and farms operated by surviving mothers, wives and daughters.
In order to rebuild, Japan needed cash flow, and with few production resources, Japan chose and filled the very bottom production niche of the cheapest goods possible (late 1940's and early 1950's).
That said, by the early 1960's, Japanese industry had regained its feet, and had re-established itself as the quality center of the planet.
Anyone who wanted a specific product produced to the absolutely highest standards would contract with Japanese manufacturers to produce that product.
In the American firearms industry, Browning, for example, contracted with Japanese machine shops to produce specialty firearms for the collector market (the Browning/Winchester Model 1892 comes to mind).
When it comes to Japanese quality today, I think it will suffice to simply say Honda, Acura, Toyota, Lexus, Subaru, and Mazda.
Regarding Japanese bicycle tubing, the Keirin NJS market requires lugged construction, and so the Japanese have not attempted to develop so-called "air-hardening" steels (which have no real use outside of the TIG-welding process) and, instead, have focused on very clean (low impurity and low inclusion) low-alloy (the best steels have less than 2% non-iron ingredients) steels; and, the Japanese have focused on the tubing fabrication process so as to make seamless tubing of very consistent and sophisticated dimensions (quad-butted, etc.).
Apart from "air-hardening" steel intended for TIG welding, the best bicycle tubing probably comes from Japan, although, I think the American manufacturer True Temper would hold up their flagship tubing, S3, as the best tubing for lugged and fillet-brazed construction.
I assume Columbus has a tubing comparable to True Temper S3 and the Japanese NJS steels, intended for lugged construction, but I don't know that much about Columbus tubing (I really only know what I read).
The Italians have thousands of years of good reputation as metal-workers and today many international manufacturers go to the Italians to have their metal prototypes made as proof of concept.
However, when it comes to quality of manufacturing, when quality matters most, the world goes to Japanese manufacturers and contracts with them.
Some of this will fly in the face of what we have learned from the movies, from government propaganda (school), and "Uncle Joe."
Prior to WWII, Japan produced the finest machine tools and steel in the world, and very cost-effectively.
America and Britain could not compete with Japan on the world market, in terms of quality and price, but especially in terms of quality.
Following WWII, the Japanese literally had nothing except burned-out urban rubble and farms operated by surviving mothers, wives and daughters.
In order to rebuild, Japan needed cash flow, and with few production resources, Japan chose and filled the very bottom production niche of the cheapest goods possible (late 1940's and early 1950's).
That said, by the early 1960's, Japanese industry had regained its feet, and had re-established itself as the quality center of the planet.
Anyone who wanted a specific product produced to the absolutely highest standards would contract with Japanese manufacturers to produce that product.
In the American firearms industry, Browning, for example, contracted with Japanese machine shops to produce specialty firearms for the collector market (the Browning/Winchester Model 1892 comes to mind).
When it comes to Japanese quality today, I think it will suffice to simply say Honda, Acura, Toyota, Lexus, Subaru, and Mazda.
Regarding Japanese bicycle tubing, the Keirin NJS market requires lugged construction, and so the Japanese have not attempted to develop so-called "air-hardening" steels (which have no real use outside of the TIG-welding process) and, instead, have focused on very clean (low impurity and low inclusion) low-alloy (the best steels have less than 2% non-iron ingredients) steels; and, the Japanese have focused on the tubing fabrication process so as to make seamless tubing of very consistent and sophisticated dimensions (quad-butted, etc.).
Apart from "air-hardening" steel intended for TIG welding, the best bicycle tubing probably comes from Japan, although, I think the American manufacturer True Temper would hold up their flagship tubing, S3, as the best tubing for lugged and fillet-brazed construction.
I assume Columbus has a tubing comparable to True Temper S3 and the Japanese NJS steels, intended for lugged construction, but I don't know that much about Columbus tubing (I really only know what I read).
The Italians have thousands of years of good reputation as metal-workers and today many international manufacturers go to the Italians to have their metal prototypes made as proof of concept.
However, when it comes to quality of manufacturing, when quality matters most, the world goes to Japanese manufacturers and contracts with them.
When people mention that many of the former Ishiwata employees carried over to Kaisei, they do not do so to imply that Kaisei remains at the level of 1980's Ishiwata tubing, but, rather, to demonstrate that Kaisei has significant depth of experience.
And, again, in closing, "Kaisei currently holds a 60 per cent share of Japan's elite Keirin frame building market."
08-19-09 | 07:51 AM
#30
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 234
Likes: 4
From: SF
Bikes: Serotta Legend Ti, Bianchi D2 Super Pista
A friend took me over to Bomber Pro, and we talked with Rinsei san about various stuff. We asked him what type of material he favors the most out of all the different brands of steel and his answer was Kaisei.
Not definite proof of anything, but I thought the opinion of someone that actually works with the stuff might matter.
+REP to K COX.
Not definite proof of anything, but I thought the opinion of someone that actually works with the stuff might matter.
+REP to K COX.
08-19-09 | 12:04 PM
#31
Old fart
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 26,318
Likes: 5,230
From: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Having personally built frames from Ishiwata, Columbus (SL, SP), Reynolds (501, 531, 753), and Tange (#1, #2, Prestige) as well as other tube types, I may have some direct experience you don't have. The most significant metallurgical advances since the 1980s come as a result of changed manufacturing methods. In the 80s, most frames were brazed. These days, most are welded. The new steels from e.g. Reynolds and Columbus are optimized for welded construction. The older steels, including heat-treated steels like Reynolds 753 (heat treated 531), Tange Prestige (heat treated Champion #1) and Columbus SL/SP lose a significant degree of strength when welded. Reynolds went so far as to refuse to sell 753 to builders who could not demonstrate (via a destructively tested sample) competence at low-temperature silver brazing. Ishiwata tubing was not heat treated; AFAIK, the major improvement Kaisei has made over the original Ishiwata tubing is heat treatment.
08-19-09 | 04:33 PM
#32
not actually Nickatina
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,447
Likes: 0
From: OR
FWIW, out of all the steel frames I've had, an Anchor made out of Kaisei 8630 was no doubt the nicest riding. Now, that could be the geometry, the bike fit, the actual tubing, the worksmanship, the other components on the build, or a combination of all four; take it with a grain of salt.
With that said, old Italian and modern keirin frames both have the "coolness" factor with their respective enthusiasts, but if you really wanted the best steel and ride quality, you'd go custom.
With that said, old Italian and modern keirin frames both have the "coolness" factor with their respective enthusiasts, but if you really wanted the best steel and ride quality, you'd go custom.
08-19-09 | 04:42 PM
#33
chickenosaurus
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,189
Likes: 0
From: Boston, MA
Bikes: 2010 Motobecane Team Track, 1997 GT Edge, 2012 Kilo TT Stripper
my bike was made by Taiwanese workers. Honestly I don't care. the whole point of globalization on this is to level the playing field. Giving Italian craftsmen thousands of dollars more for a frame of comparable quality is ridiculous, and will help equal prices for all consumers. If I had the money, would I buy a custom Pinarello, 3rensho, IndyFab or other American, Japanese, or Italian frame, maybe. But for the majority of consumers, the prices charged are just out of reach.
08-19-09 | 07:38 PM
#34
King of the Hipsters
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,128
Likes: 2
From: Bend, Oregon
Bikes: Realm Cycles Custom
I think JohnD and I agree on a few things, and disagree on hardly anything.
We both agree, I think, that the significant improvements in metallurgy for bicycle tubing involve the TIG weldability of the new steels; and, we agree that the Japanese have made no attempt to make their tubing TIG weldable.
If we disagree on anything, we disagree regarding the incremental improvements in steel manufacturing, in general, over the past decades.
JohnD represents himself as having more experience than do I due to his hands on experience with manufacturing bikes out of some of the subject tubing, and I appreciate his knowledge and experience.
On my side, I have long moderated a forum for knife collectors and knife makers, and I have written a researched article on applied-use steel manufacturing for an international magazine (amongst several articles for international magazines).
Some steel compositions, such as 4130 and 8630, have not changed over the years (4130 has a very long history for all types of uses, depending on heat treatment), but the processes for making steels has continually improved, as have the processes for extruding steel into tubes, and especially butted tubes, such as Kaisei's currently quad-butted 4130 tubing.
An old composition formula for a low alloy steel, manufactured in modern steel mills and extruded in modern factories by highly experienced technicians.
It would seem improbable for Ishiwata - Kaisei steel tubing to have not improved in the past thirty years; just as it would seem improbable for Columbus's corresponding steel tubing, of the same formula, to not have improved in the past thirty years.
And finally, in the manufacturing world, the Japanese enjoy the same good reputation for quality manufacturing as the Italians enjoy for metal fabrication.
For example, I fly a helicopter for a living, and the German manufacturer of my present helicopter contracts with Kawasaki of Japan for the major components of this German helicopter, because of Kawasaki's ability to make consistently high-quality components.
On a dollar for dollar, and strength to weight comparison, one will not find better steel bicycle tubing for lugged or brazed construction than that steel tubing made to NJS standards in Japan.
True Temper will argue the point, citing their S3 as the best of this type of steel tubing.
If one goes to United Bicycle Institute's frame-building school in Ashland, Oregon, he or she will make his or her lugged or brazed frame out of Kaisei 4130 or 8630 steel tubing.
We both agree, I think, that the significant improvements in metallurgy for bicycle tubing involve the TIG weldability of the new steels; and, we agree that the Japanese have made no attempt to make their tubing TIG weldable.
If we disagree on anything, we disagree regarding the incremental improvements in steel manufacturing, in general, over the past decades.
JohnD represents himself as having more experience than do I due to his hands on experience with manufacturing bikes out of some of the subject tubing, and I appreciate his knowledge and experience.
On my side, I have long moderated a forum for knife collectors and knife makers, and I have written a researched article on applied-use steel manufacturing for an international magazine (amongst several articles for international magazines).
Some steel compositions, such as 4130 and 8630, have not changed over the years (4130 has a very long history for all types of uses, depending on heat treatment), but the processes for making steels has continually improved, as have the processes for extruding steel into tubes, and especially butted tubes, such as Kaisei's currently quad-butted 4130 tubing.
An old composition formula for a low alloy steel, manufactured in modern steel mills and extruded in modern factories by highly experienced technicians.
It would seem improbable for Ishiwata - Kaisei steel tubing to have not improved in the past thirty years; just as it would seem improbable for Columbus's corresponding steel tubing, of the same formula, to not have improved in the past thirty years.
And finally, in the manufacturing world, the Japanese enjoy the same good reputation for quality manufacturing as the Italians enjoy for metal fabrication.
For example, I fly a helicopter for a living, and the German manufacturer of my present helicopter contracts with Kawasaki of Japan for the major components of this German helicopter, because of Kawasaki's ability to make consistently high-quality components.
On a dollar for dollar, and strength to weight comparison, one will not find better steel bicycle tubing for lugged or brazed construction than that steel tubing made to NJS standards in Japan.
True Temper will argue the point, citing their S3 as the best of this type of steel tubing.
If one goes to United Bicycle Institute's frame-building school in Ashland, Oregon, he or she will make his or her lugged or brazed frame out of Kaisei 4130 or 8630 steel tubing.
08-19-09 | 09:31 PM
#35
Old fart
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 26,318
Likes: 5,230
From: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Some steel compositions, such as 4130 and 8630, have not changed over the years (4130 has a very long history for all types of uses, depending on heat treatment), but the processes for making steels has continually improved, as have the processes for extruding steel into tubes, and especially butted tubes, such as Kaisei's currently quad-butted 4130 tubing.
08-20-09 | 08:43 AM
#36
King of the Hipsters
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,128
Likes: 2
From: Bend, Oregon
Bikes: Realm Cycles Custom
Original Post:
JohnDThompson's response to something I wrote in this thread:
An answer, of sorts, to the original post.
Originally Posted by ottoMesh
is it true that the 80's Pinarellos, and italian bikes are superior in construction, and are made of a better steel than the NJS frames? Is it an apples and oranges, or is there a clear winner in this competition? Are the Panasonics, and kazanes of today made with the same quality steel, or inferior?
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
FWIW, Ishiwata was selling quad-butted tubing back in the early 80s...
