I think JohnD and I agree on a few things, and disagree on hardly anything.

We both agree, I think, that the significant improvements in metallurgy for bicycle tubing involve the TIG weldability of the new steels; and, we agree that the Japanese have made no attempt to make their tubing TIG weldable.

If we disagree on anything, we disagree regarding the incremental improvements in steel manufacturing, in general, over the past decades.

JohnD represents himself as having more experience than do I due to his hands on experience with manufacturing bikes out of some of the subject tubing, and I appreciate his knowledge and experience.

On my side, I have long moderated a forum for knife collectors and knife makers, and I have written a researched article on applied-use steel manufacturing for an international magazine (amongst several articles for international magazines).

Some steel compositions, such as 4130 and 8630, have not changed over the years (4130 has a very long history for all types of uses, depending on heat treatment), but the processes for making steels has continually improved, as have the processes for extruding steel into tubes, and especially butted tubes, such as Kaisei's currently quad-butted 4130 tubing.

An old composition formula for a low alloy steel, manufactured in modern steel mills and extruded in modern factories by highly experienced technicians.

It would seem improbable for Ishiwata - Kaisei steel tubing to have not improved in the past thirty years; just as it would seem improbable for Columbus's corresponding steel tubing, of the same formula, to not have improved in the past thirty years.

And finally, in the manufacturing world, the Japanese enjoy the same good reputation for quality manufacturing as the Italians enjoy for metal fabrication.

For example, I fly a helicopter for a living, and the German manufacturer of my present helicopter contracts with Kawasaki of Japan for the major components of this German helicopter, because of Kawasaki's ability to make consistently high-quality components.

On a dollar for dollar, and strength to weight comparison, one will not find better steel bicycle tubing for lugged or brazed construction than that steel tubing made to NJS standards in Japan.

True Temper will argue the point, citing their S3 as the best of this type of steel tubing.

If one goes to United Bicycle Institute's frame-building school in Ashland, Oregon, he or she will make his or her lugged or brazed frame out of Kaisei 4130 or 8630 steel tubing.