Hi-Vis Study Questions Italy's Hi-Vis Law
#51
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i think i mentioned this above, but i cannot link to a specific study ... don't feel the need ... but pedal reflectors or reflective ankle straps are supposedly the best bicycle identifiers ... the things drivers will notice and identify as being associated with a bike more than solid red, flashing red, amber, whatever tail light.
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Maybe because all the vehicle have lights on in daytime and a whole bunch of vehicle evenly spaced with lights on catches attention? Also the silhouettes are fairly different from average vehicles....
as noted vision is hugely complicated....with people often not seeing what they don't expect to see
as noted vision is hugely complicated....with people often not seeing what they don't expect to see
As for the apocryphal "Frog's eye" syndrome .... the legend is that a frog can only see things which look like flying insects ... if you roll a basketball past, a frog 's brain will register nothing.
I don't buy it ... a raccoon is about the size of a basketball.
but anyway ... I have seen what you mean ... people looking for cars will not see bikes or motorcycles. On one occasion I was waiting and watching on cars and almost overlooked a semi-trailer ... because my brain was programmed to see "automobile approaching." I didn't pull out, but I didn't catch myself until the "go" signal had been sent.
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The fact that gray produces contrary results suggests that color isn't predictive of visibility, but without knowing other factors it is impossible to say.
In other words, gray car drivers could be so much "better" that they more than make up for their low contrast car color. Or, gray cars may be what other drivers are most used to looking for, so they are functionally more visible.
By the same token, black may be a great color to make your car stand out, but it can't make up enough for your bad driving to positively affect the statistics.
There is likely a certain amount of cancellation in anything like this where the combination of factors make "good" colors have poor results and vice versa.
To make a cycling analogy, why set the Hour Record at 7000 feet if there is less oxygen up there? Because other factors more than make up for the hypoxia. Without quantifying both aerodynamics and oxygen use separately the results are going to appear to be contradictory.
#54
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Again, you have to read them. They are specific.
This is an oversimplification.
It wouldn't make sense to choose black over white "because of studies about the human eye and colors".
One reason black "contrasts too much" is because the military objects are large.
In any case, the point of choosing a color isn't likely for bright daytime conditions (where it might not matter much).
The military uses black in many other contexts but not really with the intent of making stuff "contrast too much" or "more visible".
This is an oversimplification.
It wouldn't make sense to choose black over white "because of studies about the human eye and colors".
One reason black "contrasts too much" is because the military objects are large.
In any case, the point of choosing a color isn't likely for bright daytime conditions (where it might not matter much).
The military uses black in many other contexts but not really with the intent of making stuff "contrast too much" or "more visible".
In terms of car color, this would be an interesting conversation if cars only came in black or white. But since they come in mostly medium tones, my point about high contrast colors like black, white or red stands. These colors are all rather conspicuous compared to the more common gray, tan and gold.
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In any case, I tend to agree with most of what you are saying here ... but I also tend to think not much of what any of is says here, matters.
Kind of funny though ,... insurance companies have the numbers on which cars of which colors are judged responsible for most accidents ... but that wasn't mentioned in the study. If dark cars are involved in more crashes and also cause more crashes ....
The funniest part is the fact that in the UK, most accidents between bikes and cars happen on rural roads int he daytime, so visibility due to color is not an issue ... but i have to wonder is being seen at all----excessive speed on excessively narrow roads, high hedges, many curves and undulations---is responsible for all that.
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Maybe that post from you is what made me think you said something about there being a correlation between cause and color. I guess when you said precisely that, I misunderstood.
In any case, I tend to agree with most of what you are saying here ... but I also tend to think not much of what any of is says here, matters.
Kind of funny though ,... insurance companies have the numbers on which cars of which colors are judged responsible for most accidents ... but that wasn't mentioned in the study. If dark cars are involved in more crashes and also cause more crashes ....
The funniest part is the fact that in the UK, most accidents between bikes and cars happen on rural roads int he daytime, so visibility due to color is not an issue ... but i have to wonder is being seen at all----excessive speed on excessively narrow roads, high hedges, many curves and undulations---is responsible for all that.
In any case, I tend to agree with most of what you are saying here ... but I also tend to think not much of what any of is says here, matters.
Kind of funny though ,... insurance companies have the numbers on which cars of which colors are judged responsible for most accidents ... but that wasn't mentioned in the study. If dark cars are involved in more crashes and also cause more crashes ....
The funniest part is the fact that in the UK, most accidents between bikes and cars happen on rural roads int he daytime, so visibility due to color is not an issue ... but i have to wonder is being seen at all----excessive speed on excessively narrow roads, high hedges, many curves and undulations---is responsible for all that.
Insurance is an interesting thing to bring up. Insurance companies don't care about the underlying cause, they care about the correlation. So if black cars are more likely to require claim payouts, the insurance company may charge a higher premium regardless of why the accidents have a tendency to happen. They are interested in the cause and effect without needing to understand how the cause works. They are a good consumer of this kind of study.
People picking colors for visibility alone are not good consumers of this study.
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No, the black serves as a background to the white (that is, the purpose of the black is to enhance the visibility of the white area). And the purpose might not be to increase visibility but to make them distinguishable as police cars.
And we are talking about cars of one color. Multicolor cop cars doesn't mean that black alone is more visible than white alone.
And, this completely ignores the typical colors used in undercover police vehicles!
If you'd pick "certain colors", it wouldn't make sense to pick black over white of those "certain colors" were not available.
It wouldn't make sense to choose black over white "because of studies about the human eye and colors".
In any case, the point of choosing a color isn't likely for bright daytime conditions (where it might not matter much).
The military uses black in many other contexts but not really with the intent of making stuff "contrast too much" or "more visible".
In terms of car color, this would be an interesting conversation if cars only came in black or white. But since they come in mostly medium tones, my point about high contrast colors like black, white or red stands. These colors are all rather conspicuous compared to the more common gray, tan and gold.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-13-18 at 03:44 PM.
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No, you keep ignoring what I say.
You ignored this.
It wouldn't make sense to choose black over white "because of studies about the human eye and colors".
You ignored this.
The military uses black in many other contexts but not really with the intent of making stuff "contrast too much" or "more visible".
You ignored this.
It wouldn't make sense to choose black over white "because of studies about the human eye and colors".
You ignored this.
The military uses black in many other contexts but not really with the intent of making stuff "contrast too much" or "more visible".
On the second, this is the military aircraft I used to fly. You'll note that "215" is in high contrast black to allow easy visibility. Less important markings than side number are in muted gray. None of the markings are in white. In bright conditions white is lower contrast than black.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387473/
On the second, this is the military aircraft I used to fly. You'll note that "215" is in high contrast black to allow easy visibility. Less important markings than side number are in muted gray. None of the markings are in white. In bright conditions white is lower contrast than black,
The lettering is small. And the other lettering is smaller still. So, it's a case of it being "too small to matter".
Black, by itself, isn't "high contrast".
If you could control the background of black cars, you could control the contrast.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-13-18 at 04:22 PM.
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https://www.monash.edu/__data/assets...5/muarc263.pdf
I wasn't comparing black against "muted colors".
This is another instance of the "two color" problem. It's only "high contrast" relative to the background. And it's only going to be visible fairly closely (which is evident in the picture you provided).
The lettering is small. And the other lettering is small. So, it's a case of it being "too small to matter".
I wasn't comparing black against "muted colors".
This is another instance of the "two color" problem. It's only "high contrast" relative to the background. And it's only going to be visible fairly closely (which is evident in the picture you provided).
The lettering is small. And the other lettering is small. So, it's a case of it being "too small to matter".
I'm not sure what you think we're discussing, but the general street environment is the "muted color". The point of using black or white or red or neon is to provide a contrast from the general environment that gray or brown or green or gold does not. In some cases, like lettering that has to be legible half a mile away by the control tower, black provides the most contrast making the lettering stand out. And that's exactly what those black letters on that helicopter do.
Black is a conspicuous color, allowing us to see lettering, crows, Johnny Cash, Darth Vader and limousines more easily than lower contrast colors. In fact, black and white are the highest contrast colors and will stand out more in lower lighting than bright colors as the rhodopsin levels increase or in haze.
Last edited by Kontact; 04-13-18 at 04:31 PM.
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It says that black is "lower on the visibility index" (I can't find a definition for that).
Originally Posted by article
Compared to white vehicles, a number of colours where associated with higher crash risk. These colours are generally those lower on the visibility index and include black, blue, grey, green, red and silver. No colour was statistically significantly safer than white although a number of other colours could not be distinguished from white statistically in terms of crash risk.
There's nothing that indicates that visibility of aircraft is relevant to cars.
Black is a conspicuous color, allowing us to see lettering, crows, Johnny Cash, Darth Vader and limousines more easily than lower contrast colors. In fact, black and white are the highest contrast colors and will stand out more in lower lighting than bright colors as the rhodopsin levels increase or in haze.
Other than letters, being "conspicuous" isn't the goal of the other things. Black, as a choice, was not chosen because it made them "safer".
White doesn't work like black. In more cases (like night) white will stand out much more than black will.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-13-18 at 05:03 PM.
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Do you realize that you've provided no studies?
It says that black is "lower on the visibility index" (I can't find a definition for that).
Your wording was poor. One has to guess that "muted color" is the environment.
The attribute being compared is the color of cars against the environment.
The "general environment" includes places that have shadows. Given that black absorbs light and white reflects it, white is going to be "higher contrast" in those situations.
Given that the helicopter is a light tone, black is really the only choice.
There's nothing that indicates that visibility of aircraft is relevant to cars.
No, black is conspicuous only with an appropriate background.
Other than letters, being "conspicuous" isn't the goal of the other things. Black, as a choice, was not chosen because it made them "safer".
White doesn't work like black. In more cases (like night) white will stand out much more than black will.
It says that black is "lower on the visibility index" (I can't find a definition for that).
Your wording was poor. One has to guess that "muted color" is the environment.
The attribute being compared is the color of cars against the environment.
The "general environment" includes places that have shadows. Given that black absorbs light and white reflects it, white is going to be "higher contrast" in those situations.
Given that the helicopter is a light tone, black is really the only choice.
There's nothing that indicates that visibility of aircraft is relevant to cars.
No, black is conspicuous only with an appropriate background.
Other than letters, being "conspicuous" isn't the goal of the other things. Black, as a choice, was not chosen because it made them "safer".
White doesn't work like black. In more cases (like night) white will stand out much more than black will.
All colors are muted at night - which is why there are reflectors and lights for night use.
You haven't said anything that changes the fact that black is a higher contrast color than most others, which is the point I made.
#63
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And, reflectors doesn't mean that different colors wouldn't still be better.
You haven't said anything that indicates black, as a car color, is generally higher contrast to white.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-13-18 at 07:21 PM.
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