Taking hits
06-29-05 | 01:19 PM
#26
Commuting Horrorshow
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 503
Likes: 0
From: Livorno, Toscana, Italia
Bikes: Giant OCR3, Decathlon ****box.
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Technically, it is illegal to open a door without first making sure it's safe to do so. 
If you're going to count on drivers actually doing this (not to mention kids in back seats opening driver-side rear doors), you're insane.
Some people have implied or even explicitly claimed that sometimes it's impossible to avoid riding in the door zone. I don't understand this. What could possibly prevent you from merging left? It's not like parked cars suddenly appear out of nowhere right next to you. If you believe that sometimes it's unavoidable, you will inevitably end up riding in door zones.
If you understand that it is never acceptable to ride in door zones, you will find a way to avoid them, always. Works for me...
If you're going to count on drivers actually doing this (not to mention kids in back seats opening driver-side rear doors), you're insane.Some people have implied or even explicitly claimed that sometimes it's impossible to avoid riding in the door zone. I don't understand this. What could possibly prevent you from merging left? It's not like parked cars suddenly appear out of nowhere right next to you. If you believe that sometimes it's unavoidable, you will inevitably end up riding in door zones.
If you understand that it is never acceptable to ride in door zones, you will find a way to avoid them, always. Works for me...
I ride in door zones as little as possible. It's much easier in Manhattan where the traffic moves slower. In Brooklyn however it's a great way to have bottles thrown at you, cars swerve at you, or to have someone get out and simply beat your ass. I'm sure San Diego is a bicycling paradise where everyone respects you. When a car doing ~60-70mph in a 25mph zone tries to buzz you... you adjust.
06-29-05 | 01:32 PM
#27
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
From: midwest
I have been doored twice in ten years and both times the driver was appropriately sympathetic and I was not hurt badly nor was my bike - it was unsettling to find that on one, the guy's door paint had actually come off on my leg but...
Having said that, and being a lawyer, if my property or any of my body parts were injured enough to cost me to replace/repair them, I would call police (who would more than likely not come out where - they often do not respond to auto accidents where I live, but I could get accident report #) and get their name, insurance, license plate info. Take photographs of injury/damage if you have camera cell phone or other like device, and call their insurance co.
Having said that, and being a lawyer, if my property or any of my body parts were injured enough to cost me to replace/repair them, I would call police (who would more than likely not come out where - they often do not respond to auto accidents where I live, but I could get accident report #) and get their name, insurance, license plate info. Take photographs of injury/damage if you have camera cell phone or other like device, and call their insurance co.
Last edited by farrellcollie; 06-29-05 at 01:42 PM.
06-29-05 | 01:35 PM
#28
Banned.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,075
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
Respect is earned, not given.
Some cyclists behave in a way that is respected, assertively yet politely.
Those who ride submissively or with desregard for the vehicular rules of the road are typically not respected. These cyclists are also often oblivious to the role their own behavior (including body language and lateral lane position selection) plays with respect to the disrespect that they experience.
Being obsessed with "staying out of the way" of motorists to such an extent that one is willing to risk his life (doored cyclists have been killed) to do so is typical submissive cycling behavior that is not conducive to earning respect from motorists.
I commute every day on a 45 mph 6 lane arterial with curbside parking on which motorists often drive 50-60 mph, while I'm doing 15ish in the center of the outside lane (if I ride just outside of the door zone, faster traffic is tempted to squeeze in next to me to my left). I watch faster traffic approach me from behind in my rear-view mirror. They see me and try to merge left, but sometimes cannot and are forced to slow down. My body language and lane position communicate quite clearly that this is the appropriate place for me to ride, and I'm not budging. They respect that. This is confirmed by drivers who know me and see me riding on their way to work (including my wife). I think most cyclists don't realize how normal it looks, and how acceptable it is, for a cyclist to ride this way.
Some cyclists behave in a way that is respected, assertively yet politely.
Those who ride submissively or with desregard for the vehicular rules of the road are typically not respected. These cyclists are also often oblivious to the role their own behavior (including body language and lateral lane position selection) plays with respect to the disrespect that they experience.
Being obsessed with "staying out of the way" of motorists to such an extent that one is willing to risk his life (doored cyclists have been killed) to do so is typical submissive cycling behavior that is not conducive to earning respect from motorists.
I commute every day on a 45 mph 6 lane arterial with curbside parking on which motorists often drive 50-60 mph, while I'm doing 15ish in the center of the outside lane (if I ride just outside of the door zone, faster traffic is tempted to squeeze in next to me to my left). I watch faster traffic approach me from behind in my rear-view mirror. They see me and try to merge left, but sometimes cannot and are forced to slow down. My body language and lane position communicate quite clearly that this is the appropriate place for me to ride, and I'm not budging. They respect that. This is confirmed by drivers who know me and see me riding on their way to work (including my wife). I think most cyclists don't realize how normal it looks, and how acceptable it is, for a cyclist to ride this way.
Last edited by Helmet Head; 06-29-05 at 02:01 PM.
06-29-05 | 02:42 PM
#29
genec
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 27,072
Likes: 4,533
From: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I commute every day on a 45 mph 6 lane arterial with curbside parking on which motorists often drive 50-60 mph, while I'm doing 15ish in the center of the outside lane (if I ride just outside of the door zone, faster traffic is tempted to squeeze in next to me to my left). I watch faster traffic approach me from behind in my rear-view mirror. They see me and try to merge left, but sometimes cannot and are forced to slow down. My body language and lane position communicate quite clearly that this is the appropriate place for me to ride, and I'm not budging. They respect that. This is confirmed by drivers who know me and see me riding on their way to work (including my wife). I think most cyclists don't realize how normal it looks, and how acceptable it is, for a cyclist to ride this way.
Is this La Jolla Village Drive... the street with stoplights every block or two? No way motorists can get up to 50-60MPH on that road... I know, I've tried to just reach the 45MPH speed limit... not at rush hour either... There is not enough space between lights to reach those speeds. Period. Drivers are typically doing 35MPH.
Be realistic in your assements. You earn more "respect" when you tell the truth.
BTW does your wife bike too? If not, why not?
I agree that one should not be obsessive about "staying out of the way," but on the flip side some traffic situations are difficult for some cyclists... Both Forester and Ken Kifer recognized that.
Originally Posted by Ken Kifer
In looking at the specific problems of cycling, we see that the greatest problems are the volume and speed of the traffic:
1) On roads with little traffic, the speed limit is not important, although motorists approach more slowly on roads with lower speed limits. Therefore, these roads can be freely used by cyclists with only minor changes if any.
2) On roads with heavy traffic flow, cycling is impractical except for short distances unless the speeds are very low. Even if the cyclists have a separate lane, turning left is impossible and intersections are highly dangerous. Cyclists need alternatives to these roads.
3) On roads with average traffic:
a) Bicycles can travel in the automobile lanes when the speed of the traffic is about the same as bicycle speed, as occurs on crowded downtown streets or in residential neighborhoods. No change is needed.
b) When the speed of the traffic has increased to double the speed of the bicycle, then a widening of the lane by a couple of feet provides adequate room for motorists to pass when necessary. Motorists and cyclists need to be taught not to ignore each other, however, as doing so leads to accidents.
c) When the speed of the traffic reaches three times the speed of a bicycle, the room needs to increase to four foot. Again, the vehicle operators should not ignore each other.
d) When the speed of the traffic reaches four times the speed of the bicycle or more, the cyclist is in danger, even if given a wide or separate lane, due to the greater danger at intersections.
In summary, then, we need to provide alternatives only when the speed of the traffic is high (3d) and/or the volume of traffic is heavy (2). Unfortunately, the densely packed, high-speed road is on the increase, often leaving the cyclist no safe place to travel. A purist might insist that the cyclists continue to use the road anyway; others may want an independent bicycle path. I don't like either solution. Few cyclists are going to be willing to risk the busy roadway, and deaths might result. The bike path, on the other hand, is going to be taken over by joggers, dog walkers, roller bladers, and others, so that a practical cycling speed is impossible; in fact, bike paths have a much higher accident rate for cyclists than the road.
1) On roads with little traffic, the speed limit is not important, although motorists approach more slowly on roads with lower speed limits. Therefore, these roads can be freely used by cyclists with only minor changes if any.
2) On roads with heavy traffic flow, cycling is impractical except for short distances unless the speeds are very low. Even if the cyclists have a separate lane, turning left is impossible and intersections are highly dangerous. Cyclists need alternatives to these roads.
3) On roads with average traffic:
a) Bicycles can travel in the automobile lanes when the speed of the traffic is about the same as bicycle speed, as occurs on crowded downtown streets or in residential neighborhoods. No change is needed.
b) When the speed of the traffic has increased to double the speed of the bicycle, then a widening of the lane by a couple of feet provides adequate room for motorists to pass when necessary. Motorists and cyclists need to be taught not to ignore each other, however, as doing so leads to accidents.
c) When the speed of the traffic reaches three times the speed of a bicycle, the room needs to increase to four foot. Again, the vehicle operators should not ignore each other.
d) When the speed of the traffic reaches four times the speed of the bicycle or more, the cyclist is in danger, even if given a wide or separate lane, due to the greater danger at intersections.
In summary, then, we need to provide alternatives only when the speed of the traffic is high (3d) and/or the volume of traffic is heavy (2). Unfortunately, the densely packed, high-speed road is on the increase, often leaving the cyclist no safe place to travel. A purist might insist that the cyclists continue to use the road anyway; others may want an independent bicycle path. I don't like either solution. Few cyclists are going to be willing to risk the busy roadway, and deaths might result. The bike path, on the other hand, is going to be taken over by joggers, dog walkers, roller bladers, and others, so that a practical cycling speed is impossible; in fact, bike paths have a much higher accident rate for cyclists than the road.
06-29-05 | 03:37 PM
#30
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,013
Likes: 24
From: Tucson, AZ
Bikes: Custom Zona c/f tandem + Scott Plasma single
Cursing/yelling gets you nowhere.
Police and witnesses will. Demand driver's license/insurance info from offending party.
Avoiding doorzone & quick/evasive maneuvering also is a +!
Police and witnesses will. Demand driver's license/insurance info from offending party.
Avoiding doorzone & quick/evasive maneuvering also is a +!
06-29-05 | 03:45 PM
#31
Arizona Dessert
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,029
Likes: 2,170
From: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Originally Posted by genec
Both Forester and Ken Kifer recognized that....
I often find it difficult and stressful to deal with negotating with traffic especially with narrow lanes. Maybe I shouldn't be riding in 2c conditions with narrow lanes. For some reason I though that riding in the center of the lane was safe.
Fortunately none of these have on street parking. That is only on the 25-25mph residential streets where traffic is relatively light.
Al
06-29-05 | 04:09 PM
#32
genec
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 27,072
Likes: 4,533
From: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Originally Posted by noisebeam
Interesting, I find that my morning commute is a 3c/d (average 3-4x speed traffic), my evening a commute ranges from 3c/d (average 3-4x speed traffic) and 2c/d (dense 2-3x speed traffic) with sometimes narrow lanes - in fact the densest 50mph traffic is where there are the narrowest lanes.
I often find it difficult and stressful to deal with negotating with traffic especially with narrow lanes. Maybe I shouldn't be riding in 2c conditions with narrow lanes. For some reason I though that riding in the center of the lane was safe.
Fortunately none of these have on street parking. That is only on the 25-25mph residential streets where traffic is relatively light.
Al
I often find it difficult and stressful to deal with negotating with traffic especially with narrow lanes. Maybe I shouldn't be riding in 2c conditions with narrow lanes. For some reason I though that riding in the center of the lane was safe.
Fortunately none of these have on street parking. That is only on the 25-25mph residential streets where traffic is relatively light.
Al
Kifer suggested that short trips on such roads are possible... he also recognized that " A purist might insist that the cyclists continue to use the road anyway..."
How far do you go in those "2c" conditions? Of course you do mention that you find it stressful.
Personally, where parked cars are present, I always take the lane... in that I ride in the right tire track and toward the center. My reasons are two fold... doors suddenly swing open, and sometimes vehicles suddenly swing out.
50MPH with parked cars... that would be tough even for a motorist to handle... how in the world do motorists get into and out of the parking spaces?
Helmet Head does mention such speeds on his commute... and the road is indeed posted at 45MPH... but traffic does not move at that speed. The spacing of the lights does not allow it. Even parking in 35MPH traffic can be a bit hectic. It can be done of course... but it involves spotting the parking space well in advance, using turn signals and slowing such that the motorists behind either stop or go around.
Those same actions on a bike often result in angry responses. Of course... we don't have to "park" that way on bikes, and I usually find that I can quickly change a lane or whatever I need to do quickly... much faster than one can parallel park, thus keeping the "responses" to a minimum.
06-29-05 | 04:30 PM
#33
Arizona Dessert
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,029
Likes: 2,170
From: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Originally Posted by genec
How far do you go in those "2c" conditions? Of course you do mention that you find it stressful.
I ignore every passing car, to do otherwise is to spend the whole time looking in the rear view mirror as there is a constant stream of traffic.
Al
06-29-05 | 04:39 PM
#34
genec
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 27,072
Likes: 4,533
From: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Originally Posted by noisebeam
7mi of my 9mi commute are in posted 45mph zones where cars are going 50mph on multilane roads, 2mi are on 40mph posted, but much more dense traffic. I commute opposite rush hour, so while traffic is dense with no significant gaps, it is also fast moving.
I ignore every passing car, to do otherwise is to spend the whole time looking in the rear view mirror as there is a constant stream of traffic.
Al
I ignore every passing car, to do otherwise is to spend the whole time looking in the rear view mirror as there is a constant stream of traffic.
Al
06-29-05 | 04:43 PM
#35
Arizona Dessert
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,029
Likes: 2,170
From: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Originally Posted by genec
So do you find any of what Kifer said, as not true?
Al
06-29-05 | 06:40 PM
#36
Banned.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,075
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
Originally Posted by genec
Helmet Head does mention such speeds on his commute... and the road is indeed posted at 45MPH... but traffic does not move at that speed. The spacing of the lights does not allow it. Even parking in 35MPH traffic can be a bit hectic.
Maybe you're thinking of LJ Village drive further east where the lights are closer together (Regents, Genesee, Executive Way, Towne Centre Drive)? In the .7 miles between Regents and Towne Centre there are 4 lights that are usually red.... But that's not part of my commute (I turn left/north on Regents Rd, then continue east on Eastgate).
06-29-05 | 06:57 PM
#37
genec
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 27,072
Likes: 4,533
From: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Gene, it is 7/10ths of a mile from I-5 to Regents Rd along LJ Village Drive. There is one light in between, at Lebon, but it is often green in the mornings during my commute, and motorists blow through there at 50 mph. 7/10ths of a mile is plenty of time to get up to 50 mph, and I do it every time I drive to work. And I'm travelling with traffic when I do so. This is the section I'm thinking of. There is onstreet curb parking between I-5 and Lebon, and then more after Lebon up to Regents. Through that section I ride in the center of the right lane with 50 mph traffic coming from behind, and beside me.
Maybe you're thinking of LJ Village drive further east where the lights are closer together (Regents, Genesee, Executive Way, Towne Centre Drive)? In the .7 miles between Regents and Towne Centre there are 4 lights that are usually red.... But that's not part of my commute (I turn left/north on Regents Rd, then continue east on Eastgate).
Maybe you're thinking of LJ Village drive further east where the lights are closer together (Regents, Genesee, Executive Way, Towne Centre Drive)? In the .7 miles between Regents and Towne Centre there are 4 lights that are usually red.... But that's not part of my commute (I turn left/north on Regents Rd, then continue east on Eastgate).
Frankly I was thinking of the area between Torrey Pines Road and Regents Road and beyond... so starting much further west then the hiway 5 intersection and then on through it as you describe. So in .7 of a mile, if the light is green along the way, with rush hour traffic... you make 50MPH. Wow... cool. How do you get through all the other cars while doing that? Got some magic hover device?
D'OH... that's right The Serge Effect. I forgot... all the cars must peel away and leave the road just for you.
All I know is that at 7:00 PM, along that same route going east, NOT at rush hour, no one hits 45MPH. Of course that is not to say some kid on a motorcycle doesn't try to hit warp speed now and then... But the auto traffic doesn't challenge it.
But hey, if you hit 50... all power to ya; its marked 45!. Just the kind of driver that has little respect for others on the road. I'll know to stay out of your way.
06-29-05 | 07:16 PM
#38
Banned.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,075
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
Gene, in the morning, around 9am, all the cars drive about 50 mph eastbound on LJ Village Drive between I-5 and Regents. No reason to get through anyone else to hit 50.
You can also hit 50 going westbound at 7pm from Regents, especially after crossing Lebon, but because of all the construction after I-5, traffic backs up and slows you down before you get to I-5.
See you at the Coaltion meeting tonight? 7pm.
You can also hit 50 going westbound at 7pm from Regents, especially after crossing Lebon, but because of all the construction after I-5, traffic backs up and slows you down before you get to I-5.
See you at the Coaltion meeting tonight? 7pm.
06-29-05 | 07:23 PM
#39
genec
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 27,072
Likes: 4,533
From: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Gene, in the morning, around 9am, all the cars drive about 50 mph eastbound on LJ Village Drive between I-5 and Regents. No reason to get through anyone else to hit 50.
You can also hit 50 going westbound at 7pm from Regents, especially after crossing Lebon, but because of all the construction after I-5, traffic backs up and slows you down before you get to I-5.
See you at the Coaltion meeting tonight? 7pm.
You can also hit 50 going westbound at 7pm from Regents, especially after crossing Lebon, but because of all the construction after I-5, traffic backs up and slows you down before you get to I-5.
See you at the Coaltion meeting tonight? 7pm.
