Residents, bicyclists clash on sharing rural roads
07-11-05, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith99
From the article:
Brussels resident Matt Meyer said he frequently sees cyclists pedaling on the
shoulder of the Great River Road near Grafton instead of using the Vadalabene
Bike Trail a few feet away.
Once, Meyer stopped a rider and asked him why he didn't use the bike path.
"He said, 'I have just as much right to use this road as you do,'" Meyer
recalled. "I understand that the paths get crowded, but they're not using them
at all
Assuming this is what really was said and it is typical then cyclists and their attitude are a big part of the problem here. Matt Meyer asked a good question. It deserved a good answer. He is now an enemy. AND the question in and of itself deserves an answer. I assume there is a good answer. Let's say it is bacause the path is not maintained and is dangerous just saying that might well have made Meyer into an ally, or at least lest him neutral.
Brussels resident Matt Meyer said he frequently sees cyclists pedaling on the
shoulder of the Great River Road near Grafton instead of using the Vadalabene
Bike Trail a few feet away.
Once, Meyer stopped a rider and asked him why he didn't use the bike path.
"He said, 'I have just as much right to use this road as you do,'" Meyer
recalled. "I understand that the paths get crowded, but they're not using them
at all
Assuming this is what really was said and it is typical then cyclists and their attitude are a big part of the problem here. Matt Meyer asked a good question. It deserved a good answer. He is now an enemy. AND the question in and of itself deserves an answer. I assume there is a good answer. Let's say it is bacause the path is not maintained and is dangerous just saying that might well have made Meyer into an ally, or at least lest him neutral.
I have been on another board where someone complaining about bikes being on the road and not on the bike path. He consistantly insisted that the path was 'perfectly good'; at best a misstatement, worse a lie. In my experience there really is no such thing as a 'perfectly good' or even 'reasonably good' bike path.
07-12-05, 06:23 AM
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I have been asked several times by motorists why I am not on the "bike" path. From my experience, this guy probably did not stop and reasonably ask his question. If someone were to do that to me, I would give a reasonable, courteous reason. I would be happy to explain it to someone who really wants to know.
More likely, if he even stopped to ask, he leaned out the window and yelled something like, “Why don’t you ride on the path, moron??!!” That is the kind of question that I have always received and is answered with an invitation to exit his car and “discuss” the issue. They aren't really asking a question, they are insulting and trying to intimidate.
More likely, if he even stopped to ask, he leaned out the window and yelled something like, “Why don’t you ride on the path, moron??!!” That is the kind of question that I have always received and is answered with an invitation to exit his car and “discuss” the issue. They aren't really asking a question, they are insulting and trying to intimidate.
07-12-05, 06:35 AM
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There's no way around it-- any charity ride with hundreds of cyclists is going F-up traffic wherever it goes, no amount of "rules-of-the-road" training can change that. The flip side for the motorists is that mass rides are a transient event that probably brings a lot of money into town.
But, the article idiotically conflates the mass rides with the mere prescence of cyclists on the roads. No one can argue that sporadic cyclists on two lane backtops in a rural area poses a traffic problem to anyone.
But, the article idiotically conflates the mass rides with the mere prescence of cyclists on the roads. No one can argue that sporadic cyclists on two lane backtops in a rural area poses a traffic problem to anyone.
07-12-05, 06:46 AM
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No way this article is balanced. Whether intentional or merely a clueless reporter (which I suspect is the case), the article is clearly anti-bike.
Originally Posted by billh
https://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...C%22bicycle%22
Residents, bicyclists clash on sharing rural roads
By SUE HURLEY
Special to the Post-Dispatch
Sunday, Jul. 10 2005
Trouble is brewing in the bucolic hills and dales north of Alton, say some who
use the roads there for their original purpose - to handle cars, trucks and
farm vehicles.
Do WHAT?! The original purpose of the road is to handle cars, trucks and farm vehicles? Roads were built to handle traffic, and bikes are a part of the traffic mix. They are RIGHTS of way for the traveling public, not public CAR ways. Roads are not built for cars, they are built to accommodate cars as one of the users. I suspect many of those roads were laid out long before the first car was ever constructed.
Some residents of Calhoun and Jersey counties are irritated with the increasing
number of bicycle riders who use the roads for pleasure.
Gee, no one ever questions the motive of anyone driving. I wonder how much road space could be preserved and how many conflicts avoided if motorists on pleasure trips were removed from the roadway?
Pennie Pohlman recalls a recent Saturday when more than 100 participants in a
charity bike ride converged on her tiny hometown of Brussels. What she saw that
day on the winding Calhoun County roads leading from the Brussels Ferry into
her village frightened and angered her.
"(Bicyclists) were riding three abreast and sometimes stopping on the shoulder
of the road" holding up vehicle traffic, said Pohlman, who was working at the
Red and White grocery that day. "We have a lot of bike riders come through
here, and I'm sure it's because the countryside is very pretty. But it's
infuriating to see what they're doing because they are so inconsiderate."
A motorists calling cyclists inconsiderate? Maybe Ms. Pennie Pohlman should spend a bit more time in the saddle and see it from that perspective for awhile.
Pohlman said it's just a matter of time before someone gets hurt.
"There will be a head-on collision," she said. "It's going to happen."
Brussels resident Matt Meyer said he frequently sees cyclists pedaling on the
shoulder of the Great River Road near Grafton instead of using the Vadalabene
Bike Trail a few feet away.
Once, Meyer stopped a rider and asked him why he didn't use the bike path.
"He said, 'I have just as much right to use this road as you do,'" Meyer
recalled. "I understand that the paths get crowded, but they're not using them
at all."
Well, I guess that pretty much illustrates the worthless nature of sidepaths. That is one of my biggest objections to sidepaths alongside roads, motorists just do not understand that experienced cyclists find them inefficient and potentially dangerous. All they see are cyclists on "their" road instead of the path built for them and become more prone to harass cyclists.
The cyclist was correct. Illinois State Police Safety Education Officer Ralph
Timmins said bike riders legally can travel on the roadways as long as they
allow motorists sufficient room.
"(Bike riders) can continue out into the lane to miss rough spots or potholes,"
Timmins said. "They have a right to the highway, as well."
I certainly hope this was the view of a clueless reporter and not the officer. I allow room for motorists to pass, but that is more out of courtesy than because of any law. In fact, I am aware of no law that requires cyclists to allow motorists room if the cyclists deems it unsafe to do so.
But the dangers of sharing the roadways are clear. In 2003, 17 bicyclists were
killed on Illinois roads, and 2,971 were injured, according to Illinois
Department of Transportation officials.
In Missouri, nine people were killed in bicycle traffic accidents in 2003, the
last year for which statistics were available. More than 650 were injured in
crashes involving bicycles, said Al Nothum of the Missouri Highway Patrol. Most
car-bicycle accidents occur in urban areas.
Don't you just love it when they throw out raw numbers to prove how dangerous cycling is? I suspect the number of motorists crashes, deaths and injuries far exceed that of cyclists, yet we accept that and recognize it as just a part of driving. How many of those bicycle deaths and injuries can at least partially be attributed to cyclists riding in an unsafe manner, such as at night without lights or riding against traffic? How many of those involved young cyclists with little or no traffic skills? If this area is like most parts of the country, probably the majority. I find this little tidbit of information especially worthless in the context of the story as the next paragraph states there have been no cycling collisions in several years in the locale in question.
Calhoun County Sheriff Richard Meyer said although no cycling collisions have
happened there in several years, he agreed the road-sharing issue could be
solved with common sense, especially on summer weekends when bikers swell the
county's population of 5,300 to about "five times the normal," Meyer said.
Over 21,000 cyclists on any given summer weekend? Can you imagine the economic impact that must have? Over 21,000 cyclists a weekend and NO cycling collisions? I say statistically, the county residents have done a pretty good job of sharing the road.
And although Sheriff Meyer said he has reprimanded riders for ignoring stop
signs or otherwise disobeying laws, he hasn't issued any tickets.
"There's not much I can do unless I sit out there with my red lights on,
slowing traffic down even more," he said. "We have done that."
Ride organizers also are doing their part to make rides safe. Cycling events
such as the annual Tour de Cure on June 11, which took 150 cyclists through
Brussels, involve plenty of safety planning.
Lesli von Seelen with the St. Louis branch of the American Diabetes Association
- the organization that sponsors the Tour de Cure - said she makes sure the
chosen route is safe for the riders and manageable for the communities along
the way.
Warning and hazard signs are posted along the route the bikers travel, and
volunteers in support vehicles follow, monitoring them closely.
But, von Seelen added, it is after all a charity ride.
"It's just one day out of the entire year," von Seelen said. "We realize it may
cause congestion, but it's our biggest fundraiser for diabetes research
throughout the year."
This year, the 560 participants - 150 of whom rode into Calhoun County - raised
more than $235,000 for the local chapter. No injuries, accidents or
confrontations were reported at the event, which began in Grafton and continued
through Jersey, Calhoun and Greene counties, von Seelen said.
Alton bicycling enthusiast Ron Mayhew didn't take part in this year's Tour de
Cure, but he has pumped the pedals for the local MS 150, a two-day, 150-mile
annual ride that benefits the American Multiple Sclerosis Society.
Mayhew's riding experiences include angry drivers who have tossed water on him,
given him the finger and even spit on him, despite his following proper
bicycling etiquette.
And Penny Pohlman says CYCLISTS are inconsiderate? Perhaps Mr. Mayhew's bicycling etiquette is deemed inconsiderate by virtue of his being on the road in the first place.
Mayhew said problems often arise when amateur bikers who are unfamiliar with
group events join ranks with more seasoned riders. "They don't have a clue as
to what the rules are for bike riders sharing space with cars," Mayhew said.
"Sometimes you get people riding three or four abreast right down the middle of
the road."
That's the kind of behavior Pennie Pohlman witnessed, but cyclist Chuck Mayden
of Alton said that was neither typical nor acceptable.
"There's no excuse for riding three abreast," said Mayden, who has put over
10,000 miles on his Trek carbon fiber bike in the past three years. "Folks like
that make people upset for no reason. You just have to be smart about it."
Mayhew said the wise solution would be for both bikers and drivers to do their
homework. "Lots of (drivers) don't know what the rules of the road are,
either," said Mayhew, who recently co-founded the Alton-based Riverbend Cycling
Club. "It's an education issue."
Exactly. Most motorists go through driver's ed by high school age. I think a formal bike training process offered in grade school would go a long way to increasing safety and reducing bad behavior on the part of cyclists AND motorists.
Pohlman urged riders to take extra precautions in areas like Calhoun County
where there are no bike trails. "Farmers (driving slow-moving farm machinery)
pull over and let cars pass them. Bikers let cars pile up behind them. Common
courtesy would be to get off to the side and let cars go."
Yeah, and doing so would take all day to complete a ride. Farm machinery typically goes only a few miles at most, pulling over a couple times is no big deal. Many bike rides are typically much longer. Pulling over whenever a car approaches from behind would turn a bike ride into an unpleasant stop and go experience, and more difficult for human powered vehicles. Besides, just because the car is much bigger does not mean it has additional road privileges and the bike must act like a second class road user.
Cyclist hit in 1998
Tensions between drivers and cyclists flared in Monroe County in 1998 after a
farmer intentionally struck a cyclist, Norma Browne-Gerner, with his pickup in
Valmeyer. The farmer pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 30 days in jail.
Use your pickup to intentionally strike a uniformed police officer and it's assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill. Bet that is more than 30 days. Wonder why cyclists are treated differently.
The following year, cyclists from Illinois and Missouri gathered in Valmeyer
for a "Harmony Ride" to prove cyclists and drivers could coexist peacefully on
county roads.
Dan Kelley, the Monroe County sheriff, said tensions since had cooled as
motorists have recognized the right of cyclists to use county roads and
highways.
"It's not a constant ongoing problem," Kelley said. "The problem with the
bicycles tends to be the numbers on rural and small roads. If you're riding 50
or 60 bikes, even if they're riding single-file, how do you get a passenger car
around safely?
I often wonder the same thing when people insist we ride single file. Seems to me it would be easier to pass bunched up cyclists than a long line of them.
"That used to be the bone of contention when they used to have big bike rides.
You've got people on both sides of the issue who contribute to the problem by
either not knowing or not adhering to the rules."
Amen
William Lamb of the Post-Dispatch staff contributed to this story.
Residents, bicyclists clash on sharing rural roads
By SUE HURLEY
Special to the Post-Dispatch
Sunday, Jul. 10 2005
Trouble is brewing in the bucolic hills and dales north of Alton, say some who
use the roads there for their original purpose - to handle cars, trucks and
farm vehicles.
Do WHAT?! The original purpose of the road is to handle cars, trucks and farm vehicles? Roads were built to handle traffic, and bikes are a part of the traffic mix. They are RIGHTS of way for the traveling public, not public CAR ways. Roads are not built for cars, they are built to accommodate cars as one of the users. I suspect many of those roads were laid out long before the first car was ever constructed.
Some residents of Calhoun and Jersey counties are irritated with the increasing
number of bicycle riders who use the roads for pleasure.
Gee, no one ever questions the motive of anyone driving. I wonder how much road space could be preserved and how many conflicts avoided if motorists on pleasure trips were removed from the roadway?
Pennie Pohlman recalls a recent Saturday when more than 100 participants in a
charity bike ride converged on her tiny hometown of Brussels. What she saw that
day on the winding Calhoun County roads leading from the Brussels Ferry into
her village frightened and angered her.
"(Bicyclists) were riding three abreast and sometimes stopping on the shoulder
of the road" holding up vehicle traffic, said Pohlman, who was working at the
Red and White grocery that day. "We have a lot of bike riders come through
here, and I'm sure it's because the countryside is very pretty. But it's
infuriating to see what they're doing because they are so inconsiderate."
A motorists calling cyclists inconsiderate? Maybe Ms. Pennie Pohlman should spend a bit more time in the saddle and see it from that perspective for awhile.
Pohlman said it's just a matter of time before someone gets hurt.
"There will be a head-on collision," she said. "It's going to happen."
Brussels resident Matt Meyer said he frequently sees cyclists pedaling on the
shoulder of the Great River Road near Grafton instead of using the Vadalabene
Bike Trail a few feet away.
Once, Meyer stopped a rider and asked him why he didn't use the bike path.
"He said, 'I have just as much right to use this road as you do,'" Meyer
recalled. "I understand that the paths get crowded, but they're not using them
at all."
Well, I guess that pretty much illustrates the worthless nature of sidepaths. That is one of my biggest objections to sidepaths alongside roads, motorists just do not understand that experienced cyclists find them inefficient and potentially dangerous. All they see are cyclists on "their" road instead of the path built for them and become more prone to harass cyclists.
The cyclist was correct. Illinois State Police Safety Education Officer Ralph
Timmins said bike riders legally can travel on the roadways as long as they
allow motorists sufficient room.
"(Bike riders) can continue out into the lane to miss rough spots or potholes,"
Timmins said. "They have a right to the highway, as well."
I certainly hope this was the view of a clueless reporter and not the officer. I allow room for motorists to pass, but that is more out of courtesy than because of any law. In fact, I am aware of no law that requires cyclists to allow motorists room if the cyclists deems it unsafe to do so.
But the dangers of sharing the roadways are clear. In 2003, 17 bicyclists were
killed on Illinois roads, and 2,971 were injured, according to Illinois
Department of Transportation officials.
In Missouri, nine people were killed in bicycle traffic accidents in 2003, the
last year for which statistics were available. More than 650 were injured in
crashes involving bicycles, said Al Nothum of the Missouri Highway Patrol. Most
car-bicycle accidents occur in urban areas.
Don't you just love it when they throw out raw numbers to prove how dangerous cycling is? I suspect the number of motorists crashes, deaths and injuries far exceed that of cyclists, yet we accept that and recognize it as just a part of driving. How many of those bicycle deaths and injuries can at least partially be attributed to cyclists riding in an unsafe manner, such as at night without lights or riding against traffic? How many of those involved young cyclists with little or no traffic skills? If this area is like most parts of the country, probably the majority. I find this little tidbit of information especially worthless in the context of the story as the next paragraph states there have been no cycling collisions in several years in the locale in question.
Calhoun County Sheriff Richard Meyer said although no cycling collisions have
happened there in several years, he agreed the road-sharing issue could be
solved with common sense, especially on summer weekends when bikers swell the
county's population of 5,300 to about "five times the normal," Meyer said.
Over 21,000 cyclists on any given summer weekend? Can you imagine the economic impact that must have? Over 21,000 cyclists a weekend and NO cycling collisions? I say statistically, the county residents have done a pretty good job of sharing the road.
And although Sheriff Meyer said he has reprimanded riders for ignoring stop
signs or otherwise disobeying laws, he hasn't issued any tickets.
"There's not much I can do unless I sit out there with my red lights on,
slowing traffic down even more," he said. "We have done that."
Ride organizers also are doing their part to make rides safe. Cycling events
such as the annual Tour de Cure on June 11, which took 150 cyclists through
Brussels, involve plenty of safety planning.
Lesli von Seelen with the St. Louis branch of the American Diabetes Association
- the organization that sponsors the Tour de Cure - said she makes sure the
chosen route is safe for the riders and manageable for the communities along
the way.
Warning and hazard signs are posted along the route the bikers travel, and
volunteers in support vehicles follow, monitoring them closely.
But, von Seelen added, it is after all a charity ride.
"It's just one day out of the entire year," von Seelen said. "We realize it may
cause congestion, but it's our biggest fundraiser for diabetes research
throughout the year."
This year, the 560 participants - 150 of whom rode into Calhoun County - raised
more than $235,000 for the local chapter. No injuries, accidents or
confrontations were reported at the event, which began in Grafton and continued
through Jersey, Calhoun and Greene counties, von Seelen said.
Alton bicycling enthusiast Ron Mayhew didn't take part in this year's Tour de
Cure, but he has pumped the pedals for the local MS 150, a two-day, 150-mile
annual ride that benefits the American Multiple Sclerosis Society.
Mayhew's riding experiences include angry drivers who have tossed water on him,
given him the finger and even spit on him, despite his following proper
bicycling etiquette.
And Penny Pohlman says CYCLISTS are inconsiderate? Perhaps Mr. Mayhew's bicycling etiquette is deemed inconsiderate by virtue of his being on the road in the first place.
Mayhew said problems often arise when amateur bikers who are unfamiliar with
group events join ranks with more seasoned riders. "They don't have a clue as
to what the rules are for bike riders sharing space with cars," Mayhew said.
"Sometimes you get people riding three or four abreast right down the middle of
the road."
That's the kind of behavior Pennie Pohlman witnessed, but cyclist Chuck Mayden
of Alton said that was neither typical nor acceptable.
"There's no excuse for riding three abreast," said Mayden, who has put over
10,000 miles on his Trek carbon fiber bike in the past three years. "Folks like
that make people upset for no reason. You just have to be smart about it."
Mayhew said the wise solution would be for both bikers and drivers to do their
homework. "Lots of (drivers) don't know what the rules of the road are,
either," said Mayhew, who recently co-founded the Alton-based Riverbend Cycling
Club. "It's an education issue."
Exactly. Most motorists go through driver's ed by high school age. I think a formal bike training process offered in grade school would go a long way to increasing safety and reducing bad behavior on the part of cyclists AND motorists.
Pohlman urged riders to take extra precautions in areas like Calhoun County
where there are no bike trails. "Farmers (driving slow-moving farm machinery)
pull over and let cars pass them. Bikers let cars pile up behind them. Common
courtesy would be to get off to the side and let cars go."
Yeah, and doing so would take all day to complete a ride. Farm machinery typically goes only a few miles at most, pulling over a couple times is no big deal. Many bike rides are typically much longer. Pulling over whenever a car approaches from behind would turn a bike ride into an unpleasant stop and go experience, and more difficult for human powered vehicles. Besides, just because the car is much bigger does not mean it has additional road privileges and the bike must act like a second class road user.
Cyclist hit in 1998
Tensions between drivers and cyclists flared in Monroe County in 1998 after a
farmer intentionally struck a cyclist, Norma Browne-Gerner, with his pickup in
Valmeyer. The farmer pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 30 days in jail.
Use your pickup to intentionally strike a uniformed police officer and it's assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill. Bet that is more than 30 days. Wonder why cyclists are treated differently.
The following year, cyclists from Illinois and Missouri gathered in Valmeyer
for a "Harmony Ride" to prove cyclists and drivers could coexist peacefully on
county roads.
Dan Kelley, the Monroe County sheriff, said tensions since had cooled as
motorists have recognized the right of cyclists to use county roads and
highways.
"It's not a constant ongoing problem," Kelley said. "The problem with the
bicycles tends to be the numbers on rural and small roads. If you're riding 50
or 60 bikes, even if they're riding single-file, how do you get a passenger car
around safely?
I often wonder the same thing when people insist we ride single file. Seems to me it would be easier to pass bunched up cyclists than a long line of them.
"That used to be the bone of contention when they used to have big bike rides.
You've got people on both sides of the issue who contribute to the problem by
either not knowing or not adhering to the rules."
Amen
William Lamb of the Post-Dispatch staff contributed to this story.
07-12-05, 07:44 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by CB HI
I consider the article as more negative towards cyclist. It sets the tone that roads are for motorist not bicyclist, with the very first sentence.
Note that the words in red are put forward as a statement of fact and not as a viewpoint. And here I thought cyclist were the group who originally worked to get the streets paved. The author seemed to miss that point.
The article continues to build the position that bicycles do not serve a useful purpose with the implication that they are only used for fun, while on the other hand cars, trucks and farm vehicles serve only useful purposes. If the article were balanced, the author would point out that car and trucks are often used for recreation on weekends and that bicycles are often used for commuting and utility. .
Note that the words in red are put forward as a statement of fact and not as a viewpoint. And here I thought cyclist were the group who originally worked to get the streets paved. The author seemed to miss that point.
The article continues to build the position that bicycles do not serve a useful purpose with the implication that they are only used for fun, while on the other hand cars, trucks and farm vehicles serve only useful purposes. If the article were balanced, the author would point out that car and trucks are often used for recreation on weekends and that bicycles are often used for commuting and utility. .
07-12-05, 08:56 AM
#31
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In any case folks, remember that like the war on terrorism (auto-terrorism?), earning the respect of vehicle drivers on the roadways is an ongoing battle. I find the best way is to get out and ride courteously and professionally, with reasonable deference given that (in my opinion) cyclists are secondary road users. Riding in the countryside like I do, it is quite rare for me to have an unpleasant encounter with a vehicle, simply because I choose roads that have (for the most part) a decent shoulder and moderate traffic.
It was bizarre to read this complaint about a bicycle rally to raise money. Heck, most of the time when I see bicycle rallies on the road drivers are honking and giving thumbs up, since it is a highly visible way to support a cause. While any sort of rally, march, parade, or whatever is going to 'disrupt traffic' in some way, I still think such rallies present a positive image of cycling.
roughstuff
roughstuff
It was bizarre to read this complaint about a bicycle rally to raise money. Heck, most of the time when I see bicycle rallies on the road drivers are honking and giving thumbs up, since it is a highly visible way to support a cause. While any sort of rally, march, parade, or whatever is going to 'disrupt traffic' in some way, I still think such rallies present a positive image of cycling.
roughstuff
roughstuff
07-12-05, 09:17 AM
#32
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Let's be honest here folks, there are as many a-hole cyclists as there are a-hole cagers.
This past weekend, while driving in my car, I saw a pack of neon-clad, unattainium bike-riding morons taking up the entire lane -- in violation of the law -- of a two lane road. These ass-clowns were refusing to keep right forcing the cars to cross a double yellow in order to pass them.
I call idiocy wherever I find it -- two wheels or four.
BTW, I own cars, bicycles and a motorcycle. I've seen large numbers of morons operating all three.
This past weekend, while driving in my car, I saw a pack of neon-clad, unattainium bike-riding morons taking up the entire lane -- in violation of the law -- of a two lane road. These ass-clowns were refusing to keep right forcing the cars to cross a double yellow in order to pass them.
I call idiocy wherever I find it -- two wheels or four.
BTW, I own cars, bicycles and a motorcycle. I've seen large numbers of morons operating all three.
07-12-05, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cruentus
Let's be honest here folks, there are as many a-hole cyclists as there are a-hole cagers.
This past weekend, while driving in my car, I saw a pack of neon-clad, unattainium bike-riding morons taking up the entire lane -- in violation of the law -- of a two lane road. These ass-clowns were refusing to keep right forcing the cars to cross a double yellow in order to pass them.
....
This past weekend, while driving in my car, I saw a pack of neon-clad, unattainium bike-riding morons taking up the entire lane -- in violation of the law -- of a two lane road. These ass-clowns were refusing to keep right forcing the cars to cross a double yellow in order to pass them.
....
But honestly, how much did this delay you? And, how often does this occur? In a rural area with sparse traffic, there really is no need to stress about cyclists. Just pass them. There is not an invisible wall keeping you from crossing the yellow lines.
07-12-05, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
I don't think it was so balanced. For example the comment by ISP Meyers that bikes can legally use the road as long as they allow sufficient space for cars, and later.. "There's not much I can do..." I am finding more and more that that term 'legal' is used to really mean: You are allowed to (but its socially not acceptable) - hence the comment there is not much the SP can do other than ticket illegal behavior.
Al
Al
07-12-05, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith99
From the article:
Brussels resident Matt Meyer said he frequently sees cyclists pedaling on the
shoulder of the Great River Road near Grafton instead of using the Vadalabene
Bike Trail a few feet away.
Once, Meyer stopped a rider and asked him why he didn't use the bike path.
"He said, 'I have just as much right to use this road as you do,'" Meyer
recalled. "I understand that the paths get crowded, but they're not using them
at all
Assuming this is what really was said and it is typical then cyclists and their attitude are a big part of the problem here. Matt Meyer asked a good question. It deserved a good answer. He is now an enemy. AND the question in and of itself deserves an answer. I assume there is a good answer. Let's say it is bacause the path is not maintained and is dangerous just saying that might well have made Meyer into an ally, or at least lest him neutral.
Brussels resident Matt Meyer said he frequently sees cyclists pedaling on the
shoulder of the Great River Road near Grafton instead of using the Vadalabene
Bike Trail a few feet away.
Once, Meyer stopped a rider and asked him why he didn't use the bike path.
"He said, 'I have just as much right to use this road as you do,'" Meyer
recalled. "I understand that the paths get crowded, but they're not using them
at all
Assuming this is what really was said and it is typical then cyclists and their attitude are a big part of the problem here. Matt Meyer asked a good question. It deserved a good answer. He is now an enemy. AND the question in and of itself deserves an answer. I assume there is a good answer. Let's say it is bacause the path is not maintained and is dangerous just saying that might well have made Meyer into an ally, or at least lest him neutral.
07-12-05, 10:26 AM
#36
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Originally Posted by cruentus
Let's be honest here folks, there are as many a-hole cyclists as there are a-hole cagers.
This past weekend, while driving in my car, I saw a pack of neon-clad, unattainium bike-riding morons taking up the entire lane -- in violation of the law -- of a two lane road. These ass-clowns were refusing to keep right forcing the cars to cross a double yellow in order to pass them.
I call idiocy wherever I find it -- two wheels or four.
BTW, I own cars, bicycles and a motorcycle. I've seen large numbers of morons operating all three.
This past weekend, while driving in my car, I saw a pack of neon-clad, unattainium bike-riding morons taking up the entire lane -- in violation of the law -- of a two lane road. These ass-clowns were refusing to keep right forcing the cars to cross a double yellow in order to pass them.
I call idiocy wherever I find it -- two wheels or four.
BTW, I own cars, bicycles and a motorcycle. I've seen large numbers of morons operating all three.
Operation on Roadway
21202 (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:
(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
(4) when approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.
(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway or a highway, which highway carries traffic in one direction only and has two or more marked traffic lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of that roadway as practicable.
07-12-05, 10:36 AM
#37
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Originally Posted by cruentus
Let's be honest here folks, there are as many a-hole cyclists as there are a-hole cagers.
This past weekend, while driving in my car, I saw a pack of neon-clad, unattainium bike-riding morons taking up the entire lane -- in violation of the law -- of a two lane road. These ass-clowns were refusing to keep right forcing the cars to cross a double yellow in order to pass them.
I call idiocy wherever I find it -- two wheels or four.
BTW, I own cars, bicycles and a motorcycle. I've seen large numbers of morons operating all three.
This past weekend, while driving in my car, I saw a pack of neon-clad, unattainium bike-riding morons taking up the entire lane -- in violation of the law -- of a two lane road. These ass-clowns were refusing to keep right forcing the cars to cross a double yellow in order to pass them.
I call idiocy wherever I find it -- two wheels or four.
BTW, I own cars, bicycles and a motorcycle. I've seen large numbers of morons operating all three.
07-12-05, 10:47 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by cruentus
Let's be honest here folks, there are as many a-hole cyclists as there are a-hole cagers.
This past weekend, while driving in my car, I saw a pack of neon-clad, unattainium bike-riding morons taking up the entire lane -- in violation of the law -- of a two lane road. These ass-clowns were refusing to keep right forcing the cars to cross a double yellow in order to pass them.
I call idiocy wherever I find it -- two wheels or four.
BTW, I own cars, bicycles and a motorcycle. I've seen large numbers of morons operating all three.
This past weekend, while driving in my car, I saw a pack of neon-clad, unattainium bike-riding morons taking up the entire lane -- in violation of the law -- of a two lane road. These ass-clowns were refusing to keep right forcing the cars to cross a double yellow in order to pass them.
I call idiocy wherever I find it -- two wheels or four.
BTW, I own cars, bicycles and a motorcycle. I've seen large numbers of morons operating all three.
OK, but show me an ahole bike rider that can kill a cager with his vehicle... Whereas ahole cagers can easily cause harm with their vehicles.
07-12-05, 10:51 AM
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Time to grow up kiddies. The law is the law for everyone -- equally -- or there is no point in having laws.
I see these ass-clown bike riders all the time. They're real brave when they're with a group of fellow neon ass-clowns, but if I got anyone of them alone, I could punch him the the face repeatedly and his only response would be to say "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
The "tough" Harley riders -- accountants and lawyers in real life -- are the same way. Real tough pain-in-the-asses when they're riding in a group of there fellow Walter Mitty, mid-life crisis, losers.
The clown bike riders that I saw last weekend were in violation of this law:
39:4-14.2, 39:4-10.11 Operating Regulations.
Every person riding a bicycle on a roadway shall ride as near to the right roadside as practicable exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction. A bicyclist may move left under any of the following conditions: 1) To make a left turn from a left turn lane or pocket; 2) To avoid debris, drains, or other hazardous conditions on the right; 3) To pass a slower moving vehicle; 4) To occupy any available lane when traveling at the same speed as other traffic; 5) To travel no more than two abreast when traffic is not impeded, but otherwise ride in single file. Every person riding a bicycle should ride in the same direction as vehicular traffic.
BTW, these same elitists refuse to use bike paths because the bike paths are full of slow moving roller bladers, stroller pushers and blouse wearing poodle walkers, but it's OK for them to deliberately impede motor traffic.
I see these ass-clown bike riders all the time. They're real brave when they're with a group of fellow neon ass-clowns, but if I got anyone of them alone, I could punch him the the face repeatedly and his only response would be to say "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
The "tough" Harley riders -- accountants and lawyers in real life -- are the same way. Real tough pain-in-the-asses when they're riding in a group of there fellow Walter Mitty, mid-life crisis, losers.
The clown bike riders that I saw last weekend were in violation of this law:
39:4-14.2, 39:4-10.11 Operating Regulations.
Every person riding a bicycle on a roadway shall ride as near to the right roadside as practicable exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction. A bicyclist may move left under any of the following conditions: 1) To make a left turn from a left turn lane or pocket; 2) To avoid debris, drains, or other hazardous conditions on the right; 3) To pass a slower moving vehicle; 4) To occupy any available lane when traveling at the same speed as other traffic; 5) To travel no more than two abreast when traffic is not impeded, but otherwise ride in single file. Every person riding a bicycle should ride in the same direction as vehicular traffic.
BTW, these same elitists refuse to use bike paths because the bike paths are full of slow moving roller bladers, stroller pushers and blouse wearing poodle walkers, but it's OK for them to deliberately impede motor traffic.
07-12-05, 10:54 AM
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I've seen a-hole bike riders seriously injure pedestrians. It's not uncommon for bike riders to kill or main people on foot.
I don't defend idiot cagers, why should I defend idiot bicycle riders?
I don't defend idiot cagers, why should I defend idiot bicycle riders?
07-12-05, 11:03 AM
#41
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It is not UNHEARD of for bike riders to kill or maiM people on foot. It is extremely UNCOMMON.
Threaten to punch me in the face even once, and see what response you get.
Threaten to punch me in the face even once, and see what response you get.
07-12-05, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Miskatonic
Its not really a good question. Asking why cyclists don't just use the bike path is like asking why drivers don't just get out and walk. If people are asking you why you aren't using the path then there is the implication that you are supposed to be over there, not on the road. Real reasons for not using the path: poor maintenance, awful design, crowds, non-cyclists using it, will be seen as just plain old whining by the ones who would ask in the first place.
I have been on another board where someone complaining about bikes being on the road and not on the bike path. He consistantly insisted that the path was 'perfectly good'; at best a misstatement, worse a lie. In my experience there really is no such thing as a 'perfectly good' or even 'reasonably good' bike path.
I have been on another board where someone complaining about bikes being on the road and not on the bike path. He consistantly insisted that the path was 'perfectly good'; at best a misstatement, worse a lie. In my experience there really is no such thing as a 'perfectly good' or even 'reasonably good' bike path.
I can list over 100 miles of much better than just perfectly good bike paths in L.A. The L.A. River bike path and The San Gabriel River Bike Path alone give almost that many miles of limited access pretty much bike only riding that has no crossing streets. Parts of the bike path in the Sepulveda Flood Control basin are nice some of the time, but they do have the problem of the deleberate slow design and also only go a couple of miles along any one road, meaning it would not be worth it to leave the road just to return a mile or two later. A driver passing a rider in those sections might wonder why a rider was on the road with that nice bike path right there.
On the other hand they have just put in a bike path next to a bussway they are building. Several miles are next to Victory. To a driver the path will look very nice. BUT it simply ends at each intersection. So it really sucks for riders going any distance. But even at off times there is so much traffic on Victory that riders are apt to delay drivers and I think it is fair for them to wonder why the riders are on the road instead of that "nice" bike path.
07-12-05, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dwightonabike
I have been asked several times by motorists why I am not on the "bike" path. From my experience, this guy probably did not stop and reasonably ask his question. If someone were to do that to me, I would give a reasonable, courteous reason. I would be happy to explain it to someone who really wants to know.
More likely, if he even stopped to ask, he leaned out the window and yelled something like, “Why don’t you ride on the path, moron??!!” That is the kind of question that I have always received and is answered with an invitation to exit his car and “discuss” the issue. They aren't really asking a question, they are insulting and trying to intimidate.
More likely, if he even stopped to ask, he leaned out the window and yelled something like, “Why don’t you ride on the path, moron??!!” That is the kind of question that I have always received and is answered with an invitation to exit his car and “discuss” the issue. They aren't really asking a question, they are insulting and trying to intimidate.
07-12-05, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by cruentus
Time to grow up kiddies. The law is the law for everyone -- equally -- or there is no point in having laws.
I see these ass-clown bike riders all the time. They're real brave when they're with a group of fellow neon ass-clowns, but if I got anyone of them alone, I could punch him the the face repeatedly and his only response would be to say "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
...
I see these ass-clown bike riders all the time. They're real brave when they're with a group of fellow neon ass-clowns, but if I got anyone of them alone, I could punch him the the face repeatedly and his only response would be to say "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
...
That's the kind of delay we are talking about here.
Now who's the ass-clown?
07-12-05, 11:31 AM
#45
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ass-clown biker
neon ass-clowns
pain-in-the-asses
punch him in the face
elitists
You sir, have a need for anger managment counseling.
neon ass-clowns
pain-in-the-asses
punch him in the face
elitists
You sir, have a need for anger managment counseling.
Originally Posted by cruentus
Time to grow up kiddies. The law is the law for everyone -- equally -- or there is no point in having laws.
I see these ass-clown bike riders all the time. They're real brave when they're with a group of fellow neon ass-clowns, but if I got anyone of them alone, I could punch him the the face repeatedly and his only response would be to say "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
The "tough" Harley riders -- accountants and lawyers in real life -- are the same way. Real tough pain-in-the-asses when they're riding in a group of there fellow Walter Mitty, mid-life crisis, losers.
The clown bike riders that I saw last weekend were in violation of this law:
39:4-14.2, 39:4-10.11 Operating Regulations.
Every person riding a bicycle on a roadway shall ride as near to the right roadside as practicable exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction. A bicyclist may move left under any of the following conditions: 1) To make a left turn from a left turn lane or pocket; 2) To avoid debris, drains, or other hazardous conditions on the right; 3) To pass a slower moving vehicle; 4) To occupy any available lane when traveling at the same speed as other traffic; 5) To travel no more than two abreast when traffic is not impeded, but otherwise ride in single file. Every person riding a bicycle should ride in the same direction as vehicular traffic.
BTW, these same elitists refuse to use bike paths because the bike paths are full of slow moving roller bladers, stroller pushers and blouse wearing poodle walkers, but it's OK for them to deliberately impede motor traffic.
I see these ass-clown bike riders all the time. They're real brave when they're with a group of fellow neon ass-clowns, but if I got anyone of them alone, I could punch him the the face repeatedly and his only response would be to say "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
The "tough" Harley riders -- accountants and lawyers in real life -- are the same way. Real tough pain-in-the-asses when they're riding in a group of there fellow Walter Mitty, mid-life crisis, losers.
The clown bike riders that I saw last weekend were in violation of this law:
39:4-14.2, 39:4-10.11 Operating Regulations.
Every person riding a bicycle on a roadway shall ride as near to the right roadside as practicable exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction. A bicyclist may move left under any of the following conditions: 1) To make a left turn from a left turn lane or pocket; 2) To avoid debris, drains, or other hazardous conditions on the right; 3) To pass a slower moving vehicle; 4) To occupy any available lane when traveling at the same speed as other traffic; 5) To travel no more than two abreast when traffic is not impeded, but otherwise ride in single file. Every person riding a bicycle should ride in the same direction as vehicular traffic.
BTW, these same elitists refuse to use bike paths because the bike paths are full of slow moving roller bladers, stroller pushers and blouse wearing poodle walkers, but it's OK for them to deliberately impede motor traffic.
07-12-05, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by H23
Your fantasy aside, I don't believe that cyclists you talk about impede traffic for more than a few seconds. Are you the type of driver that pops a vessel if you are delayed by, literally, a few seconds?
That's the kind of delay we are talking about here.
Now who's the ass-clown?
That's the kind of delay we are talking about here.
Now who's the ass-clown?
Because you are on a bike does not make you special -- although riding in a group of pink and lavender tight wearing elitists sure does make some people "brave".
This type of behavior is typical of people with maturity issues. Like I said before, it's time to grow up.
07-12-05, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cruentus
You were in my car last weekend? The ass-clowns I speak of were riding in a pack of 50 or so taking up the entire south bound lane without any consideration whatsoever of motor traffic.
Because you are on a bike does not make you special -- although riding in a group of pink and lavender tight wearing elitists sure does make some people "brave".
This type of behavior is typical of people with maturity issues. Like I said before, it's time to grow up.
Because you are on a bike does not make you special -- although riding in a group of pink and lavender tight wearing elitists sure does make some people "brave".
This type of behavior is typical of people with maturity issues. Like I said before, it's time to grow up.
It's not a place to bash cycists because some of them got in your way and slowed you down in your car, and certainly not the place for name calling, (ass-clowns, tight wearing elitists), because you are talking about US.
I bet these ass-clowns were setting a pretty fast pace.
Time for you to slow down. Better yet get out of your car.
Day in and day out cyclists are treated by motorists without any consideration. When the tables are turned, it's time for the motorist to sit back and be PATIENT.
07-12-05, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by scarry
No it's time for you to grow up. May I remind you that this is a bicycling advocacy forum.
It's not a place to bash cycists because some of them got in your way and slowed you down in your car, and certainly not the place for name calling, (ass-clowns, tight wearing elitists), because you are talking about US.
I bet these ass-clowns were setting a pretty fast pace.
Time for you to slow down. Better yet get out of your car.
Day in and day out cyclists are treated by motorists without any consideration. When the tables are turned, it's time for the motorist to sit back and be PATIENT.
It's not a place to bash cycists because some of them got in your way and slowed you down in your car, and certainly not the place for name calling, (ass-clowns, tight wearing elitists), because you are talking about US.
I bet these ass-clowns were setting a pretty fast pace.
Time for you to slow down. Better yet get out of your car.
Day in and day out cyclists are treated by motorists without any consideration. When the tables are turned, it's time for the motorist to sit back and be PATIENT.
I've seen just about ever kind of crappy behavior from cagers, however, this doesn't excuse cyclists from behaving like childish idiots. If you're a stand-up guy, and behave like an responsible adult, I'm on your side. If you think that you and your riding buddies can behave like babies because you're all wearing flaming neon knickers, all bets are off.
The best way to promote the sport of cycling is to act in a respectfully manner toward non-cyclists. Real life is not the "in your face" Jerry Springer Show .
07-12-05, 10:04 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by scarry
No it's time for you to grow up. May I remind you that this is a bicycling advocacy forum.
It's not a place to bash cycists because some of them got in your way and slowed you down in your car, and certainly not the place for name calling, (ass-clowns, tight wearing elitists), because you are talking about US.
I bet these ass-clowns were setting a pretty fast pace.
Time for you to slow down. Better yet get out of your car.
Day in and day out cyclists are treated by motorists without any consideration. When the tables are turned, it's time for the motorist to sit back and be PATIENT.
It's not a place to bash cycists because some of them got in your way and slowed you down in your car, and certainly not the place for name calling, (ass-clowns, tight wearing elitists), because you are talking about US.
I bet these ass-clowns were setting a pretty fast pace.
Time for you to slow down. Better yet get out of your car.
Day in and day out cyclists are treated by motorists without any consideration. When the tables are turned, it's time for the motorist to sit back and be PATIENT.
07-13-05, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by cruentus
You were in my car last weekend? The ass-clowns I speak of were riding in a pack of 50 or so taking up the entire south bound lane without any consideration whatsoever of motor traffic.
Because you are on a bike does not make you special -- although riding in a group of pink and lavender tight wearing elitists sure does make some people "brave".
This type of behavior is typical of people with maturity issues. Like I said before, it's time to grow up.
Because you are on a bike does not make you special -- although riding in a group of pink and lavender tight wearing elitists sure does make some people "brave".
This type of behavior is typical of people with maturity issues. Like I said before, it's time to grow up.
You were out in your car, and came up behind a group of 50 cyclist and they took up the entire lane width... how dare they!
Cyclists can ride in groups. Cylists can ride in large groups. It's up to the overtaking vehicle to pass the group of cyclists safely. It is safer for all concerned - and easier for a motor vehicle to pass - if the group is 2-3 riders abreast than it is if the group is single file. This is especially true on winding country roads with limited sight lines.
I think your entire issue is you resent the fact that a large group of cyclist were on the road together. You also seem to have some style phobias. To bad. Get over it.
I don't think you are going to punch anybody, except maybe from behind your keyboard.