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Intentional fatal hit and run by car thief, filmed by his passenger

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Intentional fatal hit and run by car thief, filmed by his passenger

Old 09-22-23, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Since you keep insisting it doesn’t belong here, that someone else appears to be YOU!
Just trying to get you people to THINK about why it MIGHT belong here. Specifically. What I've been saying for years. The elephant in the forum. Yet, nothing.
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Old 09-22-23, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Just trying to get you people to THINK about why it MIGHT belong here. Specifically. What I've been saying for years. The elephant in the forum. Yet, nothing.
You are still continuing to not make any sense.

I explained multiple times why it made (some) sense to be here and you kept going on and on and on about why it didn’t.

Now, you are saying it might belong here?

You aren’t making sense.
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Old 09-22-23, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Just trying to get you people to THINK about why it MIGHT belong here. Specifically. What I've been saying for years. The elephant in the forum. Yet, nothing.
You are still continuing to not make any sense.

I explained multiple times why it made (some) sense to be here and you kept going on and on and on about why it didn’t.

Now, you are saying it might belong here?

You aren’t making sense.

At this point, it appears you finally realize you were spouting nonsense and are trying to scam people into believing you are being clever.

Stop wasting people’s time.

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-22-23 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 09-22-23, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Just trying to get you people to THINK about why it MIGHT belong here. Specifically. What I've been saying for years. The elephant in the forum. Yet, nothing.
You are still continuing to not make any sense.

I explained multiple times why it made (some) sense to be here and you kept going on and on and on about why it didn’t.

Now, you are saying it might belong here?

You aren’t making sense.
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Old 09-22-23, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Desert Ryder
I guess the safety aspect would be always try to be aware of what's going on around you. Would some sort of mirror have given him a few seconds warning?
Could this be a thread advocating bicycle rear radar sensors ….
Originally Posted by PeteHski
I was thinking whether or not my Garmin Varia would have helped in this situation. I think it might have if they were lurking behind the cyclist for a few seconds before the hit. Or if they had come straight in at high speed.
Originally Posted by jack pot
To the A & S strict constructionists > if the dead & maimed would wear "Take a Look" mirrors they might have had a prayer of a chance
The perpetrators were cowards. Most cowards will not attack you when you are looking at them. My practice is to turn around and look at the rare motorist that is approaching me in a dangerous way.

Would that have guaranteed that this cyclist would not have been hit? Of course not. Would that have possibly deterred these cowards, preventing him being hit and thus a non-event never coming to anyone’s attention? Of course.

We now return to our regularly scheduled program.
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Old 09-23-23, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Probably not (outside of a very slim chance).

Mirrors and the Varia work more to keep you from moving left when there's traffic there. If you are keeping your line and somewhat to the right, you are generally relying on drivers not to move to their right to mow you over.

It looks like the victim would have had to hop a curb (which has its own tangible risks).

If you spend too much time looking at your mirror, you spend less time looking forward (where there is more need to avoid stuff). That's one advantage of the Varia: you don't to look anywhere for it to work.

Mirrors/etc are useful but too many people think they "do magic" and work better than they can.
The Varia radar alerts you to the speed and distance of an incoming vehicle. It gives you a red warning if something is bearing down quickly and there is enough time to take action since it picks up vehicles very early, well before you can hear them coming. In heavy traffic it is not very useful when cars are passing constantly. But it can be invaluable in lighter traffic, particularly in rural locations.

I think in this particular scenario it would have given the rider some chance to bail out while they were lining him up for the hit. Poor guy appeared to have no clue they were tailing him. If this happened to me I would have seen their approach on my Varia and wondered why they were deliberately tailing me. I would have had a good look over my shoulder at that point.
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Old 09-23-23, 06:30 AM
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I did have a guy once ride towards me in an aggressive manner, which I saw in my mirror. I turned and looked back at him to let him know I see him, he then swerved off and took off very fast. I'm not saying he meant to kill me, rather probably just was joking around, but the fact is I can see these types very quickly in my mirror.

So mirrors do help, but I fully understand I can still be a victim of someone who is truly out to get a cyclist. Mirrors help to keep a virtual constant eye on your rear. I can turn around, including my torso, very easily and maintain a straight cycling line without the use of a mirror -- that is an important skill. However, the fact is that you simply don't see what's behind you nearly as much without a mirror -- It's so easy to just take a glance, rather than turn your head.

You'd be surprised as some of the sh*t that happens back there.


.
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Old 09-23-23, 07:05 AM
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This senseless BS brings to mind a kid I knew in high school that would make comments while driving when he saw pedestrians or bicycles suggesting that this or that was 3 points, 5 points, etc. He never actually tried to intimidate any of the pedestrians or riders, but the eerie thing about these comments is they were 4 decades ago and long before video games like Grand Theft Auto that from what I understand have situations like this. While we are disgusted and outraged by this, sadly there are sites on the net where people are entertained by these types of things.
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Old 09-23-23, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
The Varia radar alerts you to the speed and distance of an incoming vehicle. It gives you a red warning if something is bearing down quickly and there is enough time to take action since it picks up vehicles very early, well before you can hear them coming. In heavy traffic it is not very useful when cars are passing constantly. But it can be invaluable in lighter traffic, particularly in rural locations.

I think in this particular scenario it would have given the rider some chance to bail out while they were lining him up for the hit. Poor guy appeared to have no clue they were tailing him. If this happened to me I would have seen their approach on my Varia and wondered why they were deliberately tailing me. I would have had a good look over my shoulder at that point.
I’ve used one.

While you know there is something fast coming from behind, you have no idea that “it’s bearing down on you” (trying to run you over).

The difference between passing you safely and getting hit is so small that you’d really have to “take action” every time some on was approaching quickly.

Of course, most people aren’t approaching quickly including most of the ones who are going to hit you.

The video in this case doesn’t seem to show any “bearing down” that the Varia would distinguish from typical passing.

That the Varia might give you an idea you are being tailed makes some sense. You might really need a mirror too to make this work. But this probably would be as reliable as some might think. That is, I think some people run the risk of expecting all this to work better than it realistically can.

If you are in a place with very little traffic, the Varia would (likely) pick up approaching traffic. You could then look in your mirror to see if the vehicle was shifting left, which would be some indication that they saw you and weren’t planning on hitting you. In such a case, it might be practical to make a plan to bail (you might have a fair amount of time to do the planning). But for most people, most of the time, this wouldn’t be very practical.

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-23-23 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 09-23-23, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
I’ve used one.

While you know there is something fast coming from behind, you have no idea that “it’s bearing down on you” (trying to run you over).

The difference between passing you safely and getting hit is so small that you’d really have to “take action” every time some on was approaching quickly.

Of course, most people aren’t approaching quickly including most of the ones who are going to hit you.

The video in this case doesn’t seem to show any “bearing down” that the Varia would distinguish from typical passing.

That the Varia might give you an idea you are being tailed makes some sense. You might really need a mirror too to make this work. But this probably would be as reliable as some might think. That is, I think some people run the risk of expecting all this to work better than it realistically can.

If you are in a place with very little traffic, the Varia would (likely) pick up approaching traffic. You could then look in your mirror to see if the vehicle was shifting left, which would be some indication that they saw you and weren’t planning on hitting you. In such a case, it might be practical to make a plan to bail (you might have a fair amount of time to do the planning). But for most people, most of the time, this wouldn’t be very practical.
I use mine all the time. I ride on fairly rural roads so I can assess pretty much every passing vehicle on approach. If they are approaching quickly and don't slow down I always take a look behind to check that they are moving over. If they slow down and sit behind me I also take a good look at why they are doing that.

I don't expect it to save me from someone intent on running me down, but it just might. It certainly raises my awareness of what is approaching and the speed and timing of it.
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Old 09-23-23, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I use mine all the time. I ride on fairly rural roads so I can assess pretty much every passing vehicle on approach. If they are approaching quickly and don't slow down I always take a look behind to check that they are moving over. If they slow down and sit behind me I also take a good look at why they are doing that.

I don't expect it to save me from someone intent on running me down, but it just might. It certainly raises my awareness of what is approaching and the speed and timing of it.
Are you using a mirror? I wonder what percentage of Varia users use a mirror.

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-23-23 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 09-23-23, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuck M
This senseless BS brings to mind a kid I knew in high school that would make comments while driving when he saw pedestrians or bicycles suggesting that this or that was 3 points, 5 points, etc. He never actually tried to intimidate any of the pedestrians or riders, but the eerie thing about these comments is they were 4 decades ago and long before video games like Grand Theft Auto that from what I understand have situations like this. While we are disgusted and outraged by this, sadly there are sites on the net where people are entertained by these types of things.
Making such comments was pretty common practice when I was a teen half a century ago.
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Old 09-23-23, 09:45 AM
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The Garmin Varia is simply PPE. Like a hard hat, work gloves, or safety glasses. PPE is used where a particular hazard has not or could not be designed out of a system, action, or process.

This incident highlights a design & engineering problem. The problem is: Current road design relies on compliance to policy. This allows human error and other motivations into the outcome matrix. The goal of good design should be seperating out and isolating harms.

The non-compliant operators should never have had a victim accessible to them. Seperated, dedicated infrastructure is how to reduce the frequency of reportable incidents.

Think I'm wrong? When was the last time a lawn mower was sold with out a deck or a fan sold with out a shroud? When was the last time you saw a service panel/fusebox with out it's cover? How about a piece of industrial equipment with out a safety interlock? Good design is everywhere. These two operators are idiots. WE installed road design that allowed their actions. Lets advocate for safer design.

Last edited by base2; 09-23-23 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 09-23-23, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuck M
but the eerie thing about these comments is they were 4 decades ago and long before video games like Grand Theft Auto that from what I understand have situations like this.
It actually makes perfect sense since every study under the sun has debunked the notion that violent video games are linked to violent actions.
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Old 09-23-23, 12:03 PM
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Yes. I should clarify I was not suggesting that video games are linked to violence. I was just commenting on how it is widely claimed that they do. And Elmer Fudd never led me to shoot anyone.
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Old 09-23-23, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
Making such comments was pretty common practice when I was a teen half a century ago.
When I ride in the rain on tours, I have a running score from executing slugs. If I run it over it’s a point. If it makes a pop it’s two points. If I run it over from one end to the other, and the guts come spurting out, it’s 5 points. Passes the time.

Since I got bit by a raccoon years ago, merely SEEING an obliterated raccoon counts twenty five points.
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Old 09-24-23, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuck M
This senseless BS brings to mind a kid I knew in high school that would make comments while driving when he saw pedestrians or bicycles suggesting that this or that was 3 points, 5 points, etc.
I want to say this is a result from the movie "Deathrace 2000". The first release was in 1975.
I'm sure my friends and I did the same thing quoting points for this or that....
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Old 09-24-23, 10:59 AM
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Looking at the mug shot of these teens, this is a result of bad parenting, negative environmental influences and a broken home. These teens were setup for failure from the moment they were born. It doesn't excuse their heinous acts, but this isn't something they just woke up one day and decided to go murder cyclists. I've met successful people who grew up in difficult working class conditions and adverse neighborhoods, but their success stemmed from a stable family structure. As the daughter of the victim alluded to, it really is a breakdown of the family that's creating these dangerous people. Even if more money is spent on safer bicycle infrastructure, it's not going to save us if society itself is in turmoil.
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Old 09-24-23, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jonathanf2
Looking at the mug shot of these teens ……..Even if more money is spent on safer bicycle infrastructure, it's not going to save us if society itself is in turmoil.
oh come on folks, we all KNOW IT’S DUE TO CLIMATE CHANGE!
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Old 09-25-23, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Desert Ryder
I want to say this is a result from the movie "Deathrace 2000". The first release was in 1975.
I'm sure my friends and I did the same thing quoting points for this or that....
This practice among teen drivers and their passengers was around before 1975. It was common in the early 70s in my experience.
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Old 09-25-23, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
This type of crime should have automatic death penalty.
Originally Posted by Rick
I agree in this case with total proof of this act the death penalty should be used.
In Roper vs Simmons (2004), the US Supreme Court ruled that capital punishment for crimes committed by minors violates the Eighth Amendment.

Originally Posted by Rick
Feeding them until they drop dead punishes us. And most likely they would get out early and find someone else to Victimize. We do not need to be punished by spending large amounts of money being their caretakers either.
It actually costs far less to imprison someone for life than to execute them; here is just one study. This has been widely known for a long time. And if someone is sentenced to life (without parole), then it is actually NOT "likely they would get out early and find someone else to victimize."

Originally Posted by vespasianus
Commit and adult crime, get treated like an adult.
Seventeen-year old kids are not just smaller versions of adults; they are neurologically very different, with underdeveloped frontal lobes -- the part of the brain that controls judgment and impulse control, among other things. This is why juveniles are treated differently under the law. (You're still entitled to your opinion, of course.)

Originally Posted by Chuck M
This senseless BS brings to mind a kid I knew in high school that would make comments while driving when he saw pedestrians or bicycles suggesting that this or that was 3 points, 5 points, etc. He never actually tried to intimidate any of the pedestrians or riders, but the eerie thing about these comments is they were 4 decades ago and long before video games like Grand Theft Auto that from what I understand have situations like this. While we are disgusted and outraged by this, sadly there are sites on the net where people are entertained by these types of things.
Your HS friend might have been referencing this movie. I knew plenty of kids who made such remarks in the late '70s and '80s.
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Old 09-26-23, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Are you using a mirror? I wonder what percentage of Varia users use a mirror.
No, just the Varia for me.
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Old 09-26-23, 07:11 AM
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Just an update.You still think these pukes are redeemable? Luckily there was only 1 fatality. They had hit another bicyclist earlier.

https://www.fox5vegas.com/2023/09/25...et-slap-wrist/

“You think this juvenile sh-- is gonna do some sh--? I’ll be out in 30 days. I’ll bet you,” an arrest report claimed Ayala said. When the officer told Ayala that he’d likely be moved to “adult jail” due to the severity of the crimes, Ayala reportedly said, “It’s just ah, f---ing ah hit-and-run. Slap on the wrist.”
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Old 09-26-23, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Desert Ryder
Just an update.You still think these pukes are redeemable? Luckily there was only 1 fatality. They had hit another bicyclist earlier.

https://www.fox5vegas.com/2023/09/25...et-slap-wrist/

“You think this juvenile sh-- is gonna do some sh--? I’ll be out in 30 days. I’ll bet you,” an arrest report claimed Ayala said. When the officer told Ayala that he’d likely be moved to “adult jail” due to the severity of the crimes, Ayala reportedly said, “It’s just ah, f---ing ah hit-and-run. Slap on the wrist.”
"...police receive video of the alleged crash involving Probst. According to police, you hear the two males on video said “alright go go go go, PIT manuever!” before hitting a white vehicle. Shortly after, you hear them again saying “ready?” and another replying “yeah yeah yeah...hit his ass” as they speed behind Probst and hit him from behind."

Linked page later refers to the video mentioned above as having been provided to them by Jzamir Keys, one of the two defendants.
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Old 09-26-23, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by spclark
"...police receive video of the alleged crash involving Probst. According to police, you hear the two males on video said “alright go go go go, PIT manuever!” before hitting a white vehicle. Shortly after, you hear them again saying “ready?” and another replying “yeah yeah yeah...hit his ass” as they speed behind Probst and hit him from behind."

Linked page later refers to the video mentioned above as having been provided to them by Jzamir Keys, one of the two defendants.
The basic question here is why are these animals even on the street? Any bets on how long their "rap" sheet is?
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