Cyclist Aggression -- Help Me Understand What I Did Wrong!
10-23-05, 01:45 PM
#26
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If anything can be learned from this incident, is that bicyclist can be wrong, just as a motorist can. road rage works both ways. My phiosophy in a car and on a bike, is to not react to possible road rage, nor confront strangers on the street in a road rage incident. It is not worth it. Over an incident that probably would be forgotten by the next day, by reacting, people can get hurt or hurt someone else.
The bicylcist in this incident was the agresser. If I get cut off in traffic while on my bicylce, I just ignore it, and just carry on.
Now, if a motorist threatens you, stops and gets out of the car and confronts you and or threatens you, then fight back by any means possible. And it a car forces you off the road or you are hit by a motorist, try to get a licence plate, witness's, and call 911.
The bicylcist in this incident was the agresser. If I get cut off in traffic while on my bicylce, I just ignore it, and just carry on.
Now, if a motorist threatens you, stops and gets out of the car and confronts you and or threatens you, then fight back by any means possible. And it a car forces you off the road or you are hit by a motorist, try to get a licence plate, witness's, and call 911.
10-23-05, 02:03 PM
#27
Sophomoric Member
To the cyclist: I hate to say this, but cager right, rider wrong. I agree with others who said the cyclist should have hung back if multiple passing was getting him nowhere. He was just trying to ride faster than the flow of traffic allowed. You can't profit from doing that--bike or car. It will just get you into unnecessary confrontations at best, accidents at worst.
If I am going faster than the average speed of traffic, I will slow a bit, take the center of the outer lane and hold it. If I want to pass on a slow crowded street, I will use the inner lane to overtake, just like a car would. When I am going the same speed as the cars, I will "drive" my bike just as I would drive a car.
To L& AP: It sounds like you are a very courteous driver. Do you sometimes wonder if it's possible to be too courteous? Sometimes overly polite drivers slow down traffic for everybody. In this case, you slowed down to let others merge ahead of you at a lane closure. You might have been gumming up the works. This can slow everybody done more than necessary. What do you think?
If I am going faster than the average speed of traffic, I will slow a bit, take the center of the outer lane and hold it. If I want to pass on a slow crowded street, I will use the inner lane to overtake, just like a car would. When I am going the same speed as the cars, I will "drive" my bike just as I would drive a car.
To L& AP: It sounds like you are a very courteous driver. Do you sometimes wonder if it's possible to be too courteous? Sometimes overly polite drivers slow down traffic for everybody. In this case, you slowed down to let others merge ahead of you at a lane closure. You might have been gumming up the works. This can slow everybody done more than necessary. What do you think?
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10-23-05, 02:25 PM
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In aviation, if there is ever a question about right of way in a traffic situation, it always belongs to the less-maneuverable vehicle. I drive this way, and I ride this way. The cyclist was definitely at fault, and was just being a jerk.
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10-23-05, 03:59 PM
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I was out driving today along a bit of 2N2S roadway today, with cars parked along one side, following a young adult on a mountain bike who was just BEGGING me to squeeze by him. Riding along at about 15 mph in the door zone, every time there was a gap in the parked cars, he would fall into it, only to move back out just a second later. He was working hard, wiggling his bike "all over the road" (in fact, probably only within a foot or so, but not real straight). I hung back and pretended he had taken the lane, but honestly, I would have been much happier if he really had done. As it was, I was just itching to squeeze by him. Surely, nothing bad would have happened, but I found it revealing, shocking, and a little disturbing how his behavior was encouraging me to crowd him into the cars.
And then we would have another post here about ******* motorists...
And then we would have another post here about ******* motorists...
10-23-05, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by lws
I was out driving today along a bit of 2N2S roadway today, with cars parked along one side, following a young adult on a mountain bike who was just BEGGING me to squeeze by him. Riding along at about 15 mph in the door zone, every time there was a gap in the parked cars, he would fall into it, only to move back out just a second later. He was working hard, wiggling his bike "all over the road" (in fact, probably only within a foot or so, but not real straight). I hung back and pretended he had taken the lane, but honestly, I would have been much happier if he really had done. As it was, I was just itching to squeeze by him. Surely, nothing bad would have happened, but I found it revealing, shocking, and a little disturbing how his behavior was encouraging me to crowd him into the cars.
And then we would have another post here about ******* motorists...
And then we would have another post here about ******* motorists...
10-23-05, 05:24 PM
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Before we go any further in this thread, I'd like to thank everyone who has responded so far to my original message.
This is turning out to be a learning experience which will benefit me as a cyclist as much as the "accosted driver."
Putting on my cyclist helmet for a moment (which the offending rider was NOT wearing), I can only partially agree with the above.
I can think of situations when what you're suggesting above would work just fine.
However, if it's rush hour or a traffic situation that mimics rush hour, all bets are off about trying to match the prevailing speed of traffic if I can use adequate space between a line of halted cars in the traffic lane and parked cars on the curb. There are numerous arterial routes where I see this routinely occurring in very heavy traffic. And it doesn't seem to be a wrong or unsafe thing for the cyclist to be doing. If I were on my bike, that's what I'd do.
I can't believe that cyclists here are actually going to take the lane if the traffic speed is at or below 5 mph. Although my situation was in midday traffic, the slowdown caused by a merge of two lanes into one was responsible for the slower speed. As a cyclist, I don't think there was anything wrong with his trying to maintain his steady speed if he's able to do so without endangering himself or conflicting with traffic.
Remember, this was a FOUR-LANE arterial. You're not going to use the inner lane to overtake in bumper-to-bumper traffic if both lanes are moving slower than you. To my notion as a cyclist, staying in the area between traffic lanes and the cars at the curb is preferable.
It was a slow-to-a-crawl, pick-up-some-speed, slow-to-a-crawl kind of situation. Near the merge, I slowed further to allow ONE CAR to slip into the lane in front of me. I'd say that's pretty inconsequential in this situation.
This is turning out to be a learning experience which will benefit me as a cyclist as much as the "accosted driver."
Originally Posted by Roody
To the cyclist: I hate to say this, but cager right, rider wrong. I agree with others who said the cyclist should have hung back if multiple passing was getting him nowhere. He was just trying to ride faster than the flow of traffic allowed. You can't profit from doing that--bike or car. It will just get you into unnecessary confrontations at best, accidents at worst.
If I am going faster than the average speed of traffic, I will slow a bit, take the center of the outer lane and hold it. If I want to pass on a slow crowded street, I will use the inner lane to overtake, just like a car would. When I am going the same speed as the cars, I will "drive" my bike just as I would drive a car.
If I am going faster than the average speed of traffic, I will slow a bit, take the center of the outer lane and hold it. If I want to pass on a slow crowded street, I will use the inner lane to overtake, just like a car would. When I am going the same speed as the cars, I will "drive" my bike just as I would drive a car.
I can think of situations when what you're suggesting above would work just fine.
However, if it's rush hour or a traffic situation that mimics rush hour, all bets are off about trying to match the prevailing speed of traffic if I can use adequate space between a line of halted cars in the traffic lane and parked cars on the curb. There are numerous arterial routes where I see this routinely occurring in very heavy traffic. And it doesn't seem to be a wrong or unsafe thing for the cyclist to be doing. If I were on my bike, that's what I'd do.
I can't believe that cyclists here are actually going to take the lane if the traffic speed is at or below 5 mph. Although my situation was in midday traffic, the slowdown caused by a merge of two lanes into one was responsible for the slower speed. As a cyclist, I don't think there was anything wrong with his trying to maintain his steady speed if he's able to do so without endangering himself or conflicting with traffic.
Remember, this was a FOUR-LANE arterial. You're not going to use the inner lane to overtake in bumper-to-bumper traffic if both lanes are moving slower than you. To my notion as a cyclist, staying in the area between traffic lanes and the cars at the curb is preferable.
To L& AP: It sounds like you are a very courteous driver. Do you sometimes wonder if it's possible to be too courteous? Sometimes overly polite drivers slow down traffic for everybody. In this case, you slowed down to let others merge ahead of you at a lane closure. You might have been gumming up the works. This can slow everybody done more than necessary. What do you think?
Last edited by L≈ 10-23-05 at 05:37 PM.
10-23-05, 09:02 PM
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I've ridden Ashland many times by bike heading northbound from downtown to as far as Evanston. Ashland traffic is hellish. But still, being a short chick, I have no problems sharing a lane with a car, and as long as I know they know I'm there, I'm cool. As an observant cyclist, I'm aware of my surroundings at all times, especially in rush hour traffic... I know what's going on in the lane I'm sharing, I know what's going on with the parked cars, and I observe when a car suddenly starts up and/or is pulling out. I know when a car is behind me trying to turn behind me. I know what's going on across the lane all the way to the left hand turning lane. It's my responsibility as a cyclist to be aware of my surroundings. Heck, they print it in every bike map with the list of what-to-do's so that cyclists can observe some basic rules of the road.
This cyclist was just wrong- from the sounds of it, he didn't take the lane but wanted all cars to defer to him. Cars will defer, and they should, but if it's a rush hour situation, and especially with those crazy five way intersections and three different lights, you have to understand that there is going to sometimes be things happening unexpectedly, and it's up to us to be on guard at all times. I don't think that cyclist had the right to hit your car, and even if he thinks he did, that's still damage to property, and it's a crime. Had it been me, I would have called the police and given a description, especially since now, you've got to get the car fixed and your insurance may go up because of it. In fact, if you can, still... file a police report. What if you're driving along 2 days later and come across the guy? You still have a chance of confronting the guy (legally) and getting some retribution for this.
Sorry you had to deal with that. Man, you should come to Virginia. I moved here a few months ago. The drivers are a lot more considerate, and the cyclists are a lot more friendly.
Koffee
This cyclist was just wrong- from the sounds of it, he didn't take the lane but wanted all cars to defer to him. Cars will defer, and they should, but if it's a rush hour situation, and especially with those crazy five way intersections and three different lights, you have to understand that there is going to sometimes be things happening unexpectedly, and it's up to us to be on guard at all times. I don't think that cyclist had the right to hit your car, and even if he thinks he did, that's still damage to property, and it's a crime. Had it been me, I would have called the police and given a description, especially since now, you've got to get the car fixed and your insurance may go up because of it. In fact, if you can, still... file a police report. What if you're driving along 2 days later and come across the guy? You still have a chance of confronting the guy (legally) and getting some retribution for this.
Sorry you had to deal with that. Man, you should come to Virginia. I moved here a few months ago. The drivers are a lot more considerate, and the cyclists are a lot more friendly.
Koffee
10-23-05, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by koffee brown
Had it been me, I would have called the police and given a description, especially since now, you've got to get the car fixed and your insurance may go up because of it. In fact, if you can, still... file a police report. What if you're driving along 2 days later and come across the guy? You still have a chance of confronting the guy (legally) and getting some retribution for this.
Sorry you had to deal with that. Man, you should come to Virginia. I moved here a few months ago. The drivers are a lot more considerate, and the cyclists are a lot more friendly.
Koffee
Sorry you had to deal with that. Man, you should come to Virginia. I moved here a few months ago. The drivers are a lot more considerate, and the cyclists are a lot more friendly.
Koffee
Your approach is very sensible. Yes, Ashland can be hellish, but I've seen more close calls on Lincoln. Diagonal streets like Lincoln can be pretty tricky.
Chicago traffic can be intimidating at times. Consequently, I'm very cautious when I'm on the bike. That's why this situation was so disheartening to me because I must have appeared to this guy as the "ugly motorist."
As I mentioned earlier, the Chicago cop who took my report said she would have pursued the cyclist in her car. I think that's wrong because I already was able to provide a description and if the cyclist saw me following him, I fear the situation could have escalated.
Glad to hear you're enjoying Virginia.
10-23-05, 09:47 PM
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Good- and carry the police report with you, because if you see him again, you should call 311 and let them know the thug that vandalized your car is riding next to you. Then just steathily follow him until you figure out where he lives or until the police come and charge him with a misdemeanor.
Yeah... Lincoln and Miwaukee are just crazy. So is Ogden. But that's life as a cyclist in Chicago.
Koffee
Yeah... Lincoln and Miwaukee are just crazy. So is Ogden. But that's life as a cyclist in Chicago.
Koffee
10-24-05, 10:05 AM
#35
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The cyclist sounds like the cyclist has an entitlement problem. He expected you to always leave him enough room to go by you on the right, even when that wasn't feasible or smart.
10-24-05, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by L&AP
Before we go any further in this thread, I'd like to thank everyone who has responded so far to my original message.
This is turning out to be a learning experience which will benefit me as a cyclist as much as the "accosted driver."
Putting on my cyclist helmet for a moment (which the offending rider was NOT wearing), I can only partially agree with the above.
I can think of situations when what you're suggesting above would work just fine.
However, if it's rush hour or a traffic situation that mimics rush hour, all bets are off about trying to match the prevailing speed of traffic if I can use adequate space between a line of halted cars in the traffic lane and parked cars on the curb. There are numerous arterial routes where I see this routinely occurring in very heavy traffic. And it doesn't seem to be a wrong or unsafe thing for the cyclist to be doing. If I were on my bike, that's what I'd do.
I can't believe that cyclists here are actually going to take the lane if the traffic speed is at or below 5 mph. Although my situation was in midday traffic, the slowdown caused by a merge of two lanes into one was responsible for the slower speed. As a cyclist, I don't think there was anything wrong with his trying to maintain his steady speed if he's able to do so without endangering himself or conflicting with traffic.
Remember, this was a FOUR-LANE arterial. You're not going to use the inner lane to overtake in bumper-to-bumper traffic if both lanes are moving slower than you. To my notion as a cyclist, staying in the area between traffic lanes and the cars at the curb is preferable.
It was a slow-to-a-crawl, pick-up-some-speed, slow-to-a-crawl kind of situation. Near the merge, I slowed further to allow ONE CAR to slip into the lane in front of me. I'd say that's pretty inconsequential in this situation.
This is turning out to be a learning experience which will benefit me as a cyclist as much as the "accosted driver."
Putting on my cyclist helmet for a moment (which the offending rider was NOT wearing), I can only partially agree with the above.
I can think of situations when what you're suggesting above would work just fine.
However, if it's rush hour or a traffic situation that mimics rush hour, all bets are off about trying to match the prevailing speed of traffic if I can use adequate space between a line of halted cars in the traffic lane and parked cars on the curb. There are numerous arterial routes where I see this routinely occurring in very heavy traffic. And it doesn't seem to be a wrong or unsafe thing for the cyclist to be doing. If I were on my bike, that's what I'd do.
I can't believe that cyclists here are actually going to take the lane if the traffic speed is at or below 5 mph. Although my situation was in midday traffic, the slowdown caused by a merge of two lanes into one was responsible for the slower speed. As a cyclist, I don't think there was anything wrong with his trying to maintain his steady speed if he's able to do so without endangering himself or conflicting with traffic.
Remember, this was a FOUR-LANE arterial. You're not going to use the inner lane to overtake in bumper-to-bumper traffic if both lanes are moving slower than you. To my notion as a cyclist, staying in the area between traffic lanes and the cars at the curb is preferable.
It was a slow-to-a-crawl, pick-up-some-speed, slow-to-a-crawl kind of situation. Near the merge, I slowed further to allow ONE CAR to slip into the lane in front of me. I'd say that's pretty inconsequential in this situation.
It is the multiple passing situation that created the hate and discontent. If as a cyclist you can see that traffic is at a near standstill and you can move on out... Please do so.
But if traffic is such that it springs up to posted speed, then coils back to a crawl at lights... then a cyclist should simply find a spot in that traffic pattern and hold it.
The constant re-passing on the right puts a cyclists in a bad position both by being passed later by the same traffic again and by being in the door zone.
Taking advantage of a bikes narrow profile and moving on out when motor traffic is at 5MPH or less is fine... as long as it is done with caution. Motorists may suddenly turn into parking spots, or business driveways... etc., so passing on the right should be done with great caution.
10-24-05, 11:06 AM
#37
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In such a situation, with slow, stop and go congested traffic and parked cars and a narrow lane, the cyclist should have "taken the lane" staying at least 3 feet from the parked cars, and riding in the lane behind the car in front of him, not passing on the right. You could have given him a break by not passing him in the lane, but his postion did not reinforce this option. You really didn't do anything wrong and the cyclist was too aggro.
But to avoid this situation as a driver: Don't pass the cyclist if you will have to stop in a short distance ahead. Drive behind him providing a traffic break. If he continues to pass cars on the right, he will then become someone elses bother.
You could tell he was not to experienced by the fact he was riding in the "door zone".
But to avoid this situation as a driver: Don't pass the cyclist if you will have to stop in a short distance ahead. Drive behind him providing a traffic break. If he continues to pass cars on the right, he will then become someone elses bother.
You could tell he was not to experienced by the fact he was riding in the "door zone".
10-24-05, 11:09 AM
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I hear ya. When I pass on the right, it's with such extreme caution. I usually pass on the left just to be on the safe side, because you never know if a car will suddenly turn right or something like that.
Koffee
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10-24-05, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
It is the multiple passing situation that created the hate and discontent. If as a cyclist you can see that traffic is at a near standstill and you can move on out... Please do so.
But if traffic is such that it springs up to posted speed, then coils back to a crawl at lights... then a cyclist should simply find a spot in that traffic pattern and hold it.
The constant re-passing on the right puts a cyclists in a bad position both by being passed later by the same traffic again and by being in the door zone.
Taking advantage of a bikes narrow profile and moving on out when motor traffic is at 5MPH or less is fine... as long as it is done with caution. Motorists may suddenly turn into parking spots, or business driveways... etc., so passing on the right should be done with great caution.
But if traffic is such that it springs up to posted speed, then coils back to a crawl at lights... then a cyclist should simply find a spot in that traffic pattern and hold it.
The constant re-passing on the right puts a cyclists in a bad position both by being passed later by the same traffic again and by being in the door zone.
Taking advantage of a bikes narrow profile and moving on out when motor traffic is at 5MPH or less is fine... as long as it is done with caution. Motorists may suddenly turn into parking spots, or business driveways... etc., so passing on the right should be done with great caution.
Do bike lanes really provide for better bicycle/motorized traffic co-existence or do they just promote a false sense of security for the cyclist?
10-24-05, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by L&AP
Do bike lanes really provide for better bicycle/motorized traffic co-existence or do they just promote a false sense of security for the cyclist?
10-24-05, 04:33 PM
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Sorry I opened that can of worms. This is all new to me. Let me guess -- two sharply divided camps, one strongly for them, the other thinking bike lanes create problems rather than solving them.
Enough said....I'll do a search and read what others have written.
Enough said....I'll do a search and read what others have written.
10-24-05, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by L&AP
Sorry I opened that can of worms. This is all new to me. Let me guess -- two sharply divided camps, one strongly for them, the other thinking bike lanes create problems rather than solving them.
Enough said....I'll do a search and read what others have written.
Enough said....I'll do a search and read what others have written.
10-24-05, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by L&AP
Since this is my first post here, I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Dennis and I live in Chicago.
Even though I'm posting this query as the driver of an auto, I should point out that I've also been a cyclist most of my life -- for a stretch as a commuter (not currently). My post concerns a situation in which I was the object of a cyclist's aggression while driving in traffic.
What bothered me most about this incident was that I came away not understanding exactly what I did to set this guy off. So, I've come to a bicycling forum hoping that you might help me understand the nature of the threat I may have posed to this cyclist based on your own experiences and how I might avoid a situation like this in the future.
This occurred on an four lane urban arterial with a parkway (for those in Chicago, it was on N. Ashland Avenue). This street does not have a designated bicycle lane and there are parked cars along the route.
I was driving in the outer lane. As traffic was heavy, the cyclist was alongside me several times. I'm always nervous about a cyclist having enough room, so if I'm unable to move to the inside lane to give a cyclist the maximum benefit of space, I try to stay as far to the left of the outer traffic lane to allow as much room as possible between my vehicle and the parked cars.
Over several blocks, the cyclist was repeatedly alongside me for a stretch because of traffic speed. Ahead, there was slower traffic because of a merge into the right lane due to road work. I was slowing to allow traffic in the left lane to merge ahead of me.
I should also point out that this portion of Ashland with the parkway has less room to spare for the traffic lanes, especially with the parked cars.
It was about this time when I slowed to allow someone in the left lane in (who hesitated in disbelief that I was actually allowing him into my lane) that the cyclist, who had been behind me by a few car lengths, came up alongside my car and matching my speed, banged the right side of my car with his bicycle lock.
I can't understand what I could have done differently to avoid this, so I'm trying to understand the nature of his anger. The merge forced traffic to move slightly to the right, and I had to follow suit. My awareness was that he was behind me but certainly would have had a clear view of this merge situation and would have adjusted his speed and spacing accordingly. All I can imagine was that he came up into my blind spot and thought I was intentionally trying to keep him from getting around me.
Again, I'm not here to put this guy in a bad light, even though what he did was wrong. But, I'm certainly not wishing to justify his action (which was criminal damage to property). As a cyclist myself, I understand how peeved I can be sometimes with motor vehicle traffic if the motorist is being thoughtless, careless, or intentionally endangering me. But, I'd never take an action like that. On the chance there might be people reading this forum who might have similar inclinations to this guy, please help me learn from this situation and what I possibly might have missed to make sure that he and I were co-existing safely.
I try to practice the Golden Rule behind the wheel because I've been involved in two accidents as a cyclist which were caused by a lack of due care by drivers.
Your thoughts would be appreciated to help me be a better driver and cyclist.
Thanks!
Even though I'm posting this query as the driver of an auto, I should point out that I've also been a cyclist most of my life -- for a stretch as a commuter (not currently). My post concerns a situation in which I was the object of a cyclist's aggression while driving in traffic.
What bothered me most about this incident was that I came away not understanding exactly what I did to set this guy off. So, I've come to a bicycling forum hoping that you might help me understand the nature of the threat I may have posed to this cyclist based on your own experiences and how I might avoid a situation like this in the future.
This occurred on an four lane urban arterial with a parkway (for those in Chicago, it was on N. Ashland Avenue). This street does not have a designated bicycle lane and there are parked cars along the route.
I was driving in the outer lane. As traffic was heavy, the cyclist was alongside me several times. I'm always nervous about a cyclist having enough room, so if I'm unable to move to the inside lane to give a cyclist the maximum benefit of space, I try to stay as far to the left of the outer traffic lane to allow as much room as possible between my vehicle and the parked cars.
Over several blocks, the cyclist was repeatedly alongside me for a stretch because of traffic speed. Ahead, there was slower traffic because of a merge into the right lane due to road work. I was slowing to allow traffic in the left lane to merge ahead of me.
I should also point out that this portion of Ashland with the parkway has less room to spare for the traffic lanes, especially with the parked cars.
It was about this time when I slowed to allow someone in the left lane in (who hesitated in disbelief that I was actually allowing him into my lane) that the cyclist, who had been behind me by a few car lengths, came up alongside my car and matching my speed, banged the right side of my car with his bicycle lock.
I can't understand what I could have done differently to avoid this, so I'm trying to understand the nature of his anger. The merge forced traffic to move slightly to the right, and I had to follow suit. My awareness was that he was behind me but certainly would have had a clear view of this merge situation and would have adjusted his speed and spacing accordingly. All I can imagine was that he came up into my blind spot and thought I was intentionally trying to keep him from getting around me.
Again, I'm not here to put this guy in a bad light, even though what he did was wrong. But, I'm certainly not wishing to justify his action (which was criminal damage to property). As a cyclist myself, I understand how peeved I can be sometimes with motor vehicle traffic if the motorist is being thoughtless, careless, or intentionally endangering me. But, I'd never take an action like that. On the chance there might be people reading this forum who might have similar inclinations to this guy, please help me learn from this situation and what I possibly might have missed to make sure that he and I were co-existing safely.
I try to practice the Golden Rule behind the wheel because I've been involved in two accidents as a cyclist which were caused by a lack of due care by drivers.
Your thoughts would be appreciated to help me be a better driver and cyclist.
Thanks!
Stay safe!
