NoReg

Diane, I have a two wheel recumbent, scares me to think what that would have been like in New Brunswick. Funny thing was I camped that night next to three guys from PA who were all on recumbents. They were headed up the section I was savaged on, and I always wondered how they dealt with it, they had come a long way, and must have figured it out. If I was in a trike, I would get a slingshot and a pouch of bearing, and just stop and let them have it.

nakota

A medium-sized cross-breed took a 1/4" by 1 1/4" chunk out of my brother's thigh halfway between his knee and his butt. He had "outrun" this dog many times before and it caught him in motion, in traffic. He lost it and went down in front of a car. It stopped in time, fortunately. He went to the hospital with his small but painful bite wound and some bloody road rash. Dog disappeared and the assumed owners denied any knowlege of it. Rabies shots.
Could've been worse. Could have been better.

I'm not willing to take even a minor spill for a minor nuisance. I've trained the dogs along my route not to chase me, that simple.
When a dog chases me into the road, for fun or otherwise, he's invading my territory.

phoebeisis

nakota-he had to slow down?Hmmm,this mutt ran between the moving cars to get him at a redlight?This dog was the exception,but it makes my point;his significant injuries weren't from the bite,they were from the fall.Riders should make every effort to keep moving and keep their eyes on the real danger-the cars.
It is an extremely rare dog that will pursue a biker thru traffic.
I stand by my contention.The sort of bite you can get from a scruffy little mutt isn't a significant injury.The significant injuries are from concentrating on the mutt-grabbing pepper spray-activating it(wind)-and riding right into a car or a curb.IT IS A MISTAKE TO CONCENTRATE ON THE DOG;IT IS A MINOR ANNOYANCE.THE INJURY IS FROM CRASHING WHILE CONCENTRATING ON THE MUTT!
Now this is assuming the dog isn't a fighting breed with a large head and powerful jaws-pitbulls-Rotts etc.All bets are off with these mutts.I would still bet that a downshift with increased speed would be the safest play,but...
Increase your speed and concentrate on not crashing-the danger is from the crash,not the bite.Cars,curbs and humans kill adult bike riders-not dogs;the pepper spray is for the 2 legged predators.Your suggestion that riders should actively engage the mutts just isn't the smart play.They will end up bounced by a car-dead- while avoiding a 1/1000 chance of a minor bite.Charlie

banerjek

I must admit that I never thought of a typical household mutt as a threat. These things simply don't have the size or strength to do real damage -- the worst thing you could do is run into it and crash.

Reading body language of dogs is a good idea. No matter what, you need to use your head -- if you see a 150 lb Rott in an aggressive stance directly in your path or a pack of 4 dogs moving to intercept you 100 yards up the road, you need to change your plan. This is no time to be pigheaded about what you "shouldn't" have to do.

I don't think outrunning dogs is a good idea. Many guard dogs are faster than cyclists and when they aren't, it trains them to do the wrong thing. I have found that the best policy is to act disinterested and move as predictably as possible. Shift way up to drop your cadence and coast if necessary. Many dogs will put on quite a show and come up very close, maybe nipping at you a bit. However, they tend to drop off if you don't get excited. You want the dogs to be as calm as possible. Alert the owner/authorities as appropriate even if you don't get bitten if you think the situation could be dangerous for others.

phoebeisis

banerjek-I agree-obviously-most household mutts aren't capable of delivering much of an injury.Fortunately,scruffy little to midsized dogs-usually well under 40 lbs- are the majority of mutts that chase folks on bikes.
Yes,most guard type dogs can easily outrun you-I can do maybe 25mph-Rotts-pits can probably do 30+-Dobermans maybe 40mph.Still,I have never been chased by a "guard dog".Folks don't let valuable dogs run loose.Big guard dogs and "fighting dogs" are valuable.I rarely see loose pit bulls-thank God- because there is always some thug who would want it.
Encounters with really dangerous dogs are extremely rare.I would bet that an adult male rider has never been killed by a-the- dog attack despite there being 100,000's of "chased by dogs" incidents every year.Now I don't doubt that there are deaths from wrecks attributed to these chases.
The dog-with the exception of Pits-Rotts etc-isn't very dangerous.Allowing yourself to become distracted is.
Take a good look at how close your "pedal circle" is to the side of the bike?It is maybe 3" from the rear wheel-rear triangle.If the dog tries to chase you down from the rear he will literally hit the moving wheel-tire-crank-pedal.He will have to catch up then veer wide,and make an awkward angled inward lunge.I hesitate to mention it,but I usually make a few inward tilts-wiggles when the mutt gets close( especially if he is coming in at a good angle-this is rare,they usually let you pass then pursue from the rear-just like a wolf on a deer-dog on rabbit etc.).However I keep my attention in front of me.They always quit.It is really hard to bite a moving leg on a 20 mph bike.
Dog chases can be dangerous,but the bite isn't the problem.It is the distraction.Luck,Charlie-cars-curbs-humans kill bike riders-not dogs.

NoReg

Obviously traffic is a bigger problem than dogs, but dogs are a serious enough problem too. All over the place, it seems like people are buying elephantine dogs. Where are the cute mutts of the 60s, people are buying large breeds, often fighting breeds, and the injuries they can cause can't be discounted. We had a local girl eaten alive by her granny's dogs, she survived, but is in a wheelchair they were feeding on her when interupted. That kind of thing isn't going to happen to you on a bike in plain sight, but it goes to show the modern day dog isn't the dog I grew up with. I just lost my sense of humour when I got kids, I don't care for dogs at all, and I follow the Marine rule (?), except for dogs, of being couteous to everyone you meet while formulating a plan to kill them should the need arise. The province I live in pretty much reached the same point and has banned pitt bulls, etc...

I have never personally been blind sided by a dog, but they can kill you or do you a lot of damage in a 90 degree attack.

San Rensho 

I agree with Pheobeisis that most dogs will just chase without biting and then quit, and its important to keep an eye on traffic and not worry much about the dog.

To understand why dogs chase, you have to think like a dog. Dogs are territorial, they try to keep everyone and everything out of their territory. Now, if my job is to chase things out of my territory, think what happens when a cyclist comes by. I bark at him and he runs away as fast as he can! Boy, am I good. Everyday he comes by and I chase him away. This is great! I am doing a great job.

That why dogs chase. They are not trying to eat you, bite you. They are just doing thier job. Ignoring them usually works, or as I said before, just spray them with water and eventually they get the hint.

KrisPistofferson

Pepper spray. Also helps with unruly motorists who pull over at random and want to fight,(I've had this happen.)

Paiyili

All dogs bite. It's what they do. Oh, some might be friendly and passive 90% of the time, but there is, buried inside, a trigger that will make them bite. When chasing a cyclist, some might not be intending to bite, but many definitely have chomping in mind. There are lots of theories about why they chase cyclists (territorial, instinctive chasing of things running away, perceiving pedaling legs as running, etc.) but the bottom line is that a dog chasing you is a bad thing. They will negatively affect your control of the bike, and they can end up biting you or fouling your drivetrain/wheels. Dogs are not like us. They don't think like us, no matter how much we like to think they do. When you can see his teeth, Bowser is not smiling at you. I am, therefore, a strong advocate of the use of canine pepper spray. No, I don't think it is good to punish the dog. I think it is good to teach the dog not to chase cyclists. Once the dog gets a snootfull of pepper he/she/it will be less likely to chase the next guy. This can reduce the amount of time the dog spends in the road, making him/her/it safer. It also reduces the chances that the dog will actually bite a cyclist, which can prolong the life of the dog. Establishing dominance, becoming the alpha dog, is a GOOD thing, and ultimately helps the dog.

bshow1

When I ride with my (faster) buddy, the dogs usually chase him. By the time I come huffing along, they are either bored or tired, and tend to leave me alone

phoebeisis

peterpan-you are right-there are more "killer dogs" around than when I was a kid.I just don't understand why anyone with an ounce of sense would want an attack-guard dog.Hey,all I want is for my dog to give me about 5 seconds warning so I can get to my Sig or Glock and charge it up.Phoebe and I have an agreement-she does the barking,I do the biting.I sure as heck don't want to leave that decision up to a dog!!No matter how well a guard dog is trained,it is still being trained to be aggressive toward human beings.One day it is going to chomp the kid next door when he comes in the yard etc.
Fortunately-the huge guard-attack-fighting dogs are rarely running loose since they are expensive mutts.Yes,my advice is for "normal" domesticated dogs,not dogs that have been trained to(selectively??) attack humans.
The DMF Dr Rea on Dr 90210(plastic surgeon to a bunch of CA half-wits) just bought a HUGE killer puppy-sold to him by a tattoed know it all trainer-breeder-as a home-child wife protecting dog.He has 2 very young-2 yo) kids.I see a really unpleasant ending to that story.Duh-get a biggish sweet dog-Lab,Greyhound,etc to scare intruders and make noise.These big muscular dogs are free and very hardy since any inbreeding to fix a trait was done a hundred generations ago.None of the "HIP" problems some-all- biggish breeds have because they have been recently inbred to "fix" a trait in the breed(usually size or aggressiveness).
Want a big muscle dog-get a greyhound.They immediately gain 20 lbs,and they are free.They look a lot like a Doberman.Many will bark alarm,but they will never bite a neighbor;they also have zero odor(except when wet or immediately post running,and don't shed much).
Oh well-you rarely encounter this new type dog(except for pits which urban thugs like,but can't seem to control)Charlie

Meek

In backwoods Southern Indiana every other dog is a Pit Bull. Sucks!!! I am not stopping or slowing down for a Pit.

Michigander

Tazers are legal in most states, and police type expanding batons are legal in all but one or two. 37 states now have shall issue concealed weapons permits legislation. A big stupid and vicious dog's life is not worth more than the life of anyone reading this. And frankly, anybody who elected not to be prepaired, and then gets hurt or killed by a dog will have no sympathy from me.

banerjek

Preparation is all relative. Body armor and full face helmets can greatly reduce injuries in all kinds of crashes (and would also be very helpful against hostile dogs) but I won't wear either unless I get a motorcycle.

I'm certain more cyclists get injured or killed in encounters with cars than dogs. When a dog kills someone, it makes national news. When a car does this, hardly anyone knows. And when cyclists do this to themselves, no one cares. I'll bet a very high percentage of BF members have broken teeth, bones, and have permanent scars from bike crashes (many of them their own fault).

While I understand why some people feel more secure with pepper spray, the focus needs to be on getting the owners in line. Until the owners' behavior is corrected they will continue sending out dogs and the fact that you hurt or kill the animals won't change that.

NoReg

"That why dogs chase. They are not trying to eat you, bite you. They are just doing thier job. Ignoring them usually works, or as I said before, just spray them with water and eventually they get the hint."

This isn't a mater of the morality of the dog for me. The lion that chases me may be one heck of a Lion, a real Lion's Lion, but that isn't going to help me. Dogs that are chasing me are also likely chasing every deer in the woods, and catching a few. Many may well be blooded, so don't be so sure it's just harmless aerobics for them. The problem with water, and even pepper spray, is that by the moment they are that close they can make the attack through the spray or the water, 99% will get the message, but that's just a numbers game. And if you are in an area where you are taking on 40 attacks in a morning, it gets tenuous. Touring bikes are too slow to outrun dogs but fast enough to be interesting.

phoebeisis, up here in Canada most self defence stuff is illegal, weapons are explicitly illegal, If you are travelling up here the pepper spar is illegal, sorta. But people do want to have something, and a lot of them are laying in a big a$$ed dogs.

A paint ball gun would be ideal, you could run pepper spray balls and marking balls mixed. Some doesn't wash out marking stuff would be perfect.

"While I understand why some people feel more secure with pepper spray, the focus needs to be on getting the owners in line. Until the owners' behavior is corrected they will continue sending out dogs and the fact that you hurt or kill the animals won't change that."

That makes sense in a city where there is one bad dog running out at commuters, but in the outback, it's just too much trouble. It's bad enough that I am getting attacked every half mile, I sure don't have the time to change some hearts and minds as well. And the reality is that a lot of these people don't care if their dogs chase a cyclist now and again, probably makes them feel a little safer knowing their dog is on the job, as San Rensho would say.

bkrownd

People who let their pets loose outside ARE bad people.

Bekologist

It's shouldn't be a big morality play. I see plenty of mellow farm dogs, lots of barking dogs that stay territorial, and also plenty of bad dogs out there, and pepper spray will curb the agressive ones from chasing bikers. It's a big planet.

mount a can of dog-n-driver spray somewhere easy to get to, and practice getting it ready, and use it if you feel an attack is imminent.

banerjek

I understand where you're coming from. I spend the vast majority of my time on rural 2 lane roads, though I ride into town to get to work. Practically all of my dog encounters are out in the middle of nowhere with some huge poorly socialized mixed or pure bred that doesn't like strangers, especially ones on bikes. A disproportionate percentage of people who don't live in a town seem to have a cowboy mentality and think it's OK to intimidate people who they don't want around. You won't be able to change hearts or minds. You use the law to force people to do what they should.

Along my commute, I used to have problems with 4 dogs that ran together. Even if you are not afraid of dog fights, it's not fun to hear 4 large dogs rapidly closing on you in the dark since you don't know where they are or where the intercept point will be. In that particular case, I called the sherriff. I've seen them a few times later so I know they weren't taken away. But they don't bother me anymore either. I am convinced that working on the humans is the trick, though I admit the dynamic is different on regular routes than rides you only do once.

I don't begrudge those who use pepper spray (my wife has been bugging me to carry it for years). Truth be told, there have been a few times over the years when I would have used it -- on both humans and dogs. However, I don't know for certain that having that capability would have made some unpleasant situations resolve better.

Weapons make it very easy to escalate a situation. Just as humans seem to have a lot of trouble controlling their emotions and acting rationally, so do animals. In the heat of the moment, it's easy to overreact. Hostile encounters with dogs are not entirely unlike hostile encounters with humans (though I think the humans are actually more dangerous). A lot of the same techniques work. Being calm is one of them -- hard to do in a real situation, but ultimately a very good option.

Michigander

First of all, pepper spray is unreliable garbage. Its jammed on me, and also on a friend of mine. From the way you talk about dog attacks, its evident you've never experienced a serious one. Consider the following:

My dad was attacked by a rabid dog in the 70's, and he killed it with his pocket knife, escaping any injury.

When I was a kid doing a paper route, my brother and I were attacked by a big dog, and luckily for us, we carried a baseball bat.

On the Michigander, my favorite tour across the state, farm dogs are known for attacking bike riders, often in packs. The thing is, inbread farmers don't really care about some God damn yuppee going through their neck of the woods. Its just like Deliverance. It doesn't matter who you are in the city, hicks don't care. In the 5 years I've gone on the Michigander, I've been attacked by dogs twice, and once stalked by genius hillbilly teenagers, but I have no accidents to speak of.

I was actully charged by a loose farm dog while crow hunting today, and rather than shoot it, a butt stroke to the snout did the trick.

The bottom line is, depending on where you are, dog attacks can be a very real threat, as can be attacks from bears, big cats, or whatever else might be lurking where you ride, walk or jog. Humans are a real concern too, but thats a topic for another thread.

PeterPan1,

You mentioned pepperballs. Do you know of anywhere that those are available? I have no use or desire to get any, but I am curious because I had thought they had been unavailable for the past couple years.

banerjek

Depends on what you call serious. I once had two dogs with a combined weight over 200 lbs ripping at my arms at the same time while I kicked until I was able to yank my arms out. Once I freed myself, I had to repeatedly kick and throw for a bit until they backed off (looks like years of Tae Kwon Do did come in handy after all). I've been in a few other situations that took some time to heal from though they aren't bike related.

When a large dog goes after you, the canines go in deep like anchors. The dog shakes his head vigorously and getting freed from the grip is very difficult because a strong dog that is almost as big as you can throw you around a little as they pull and tear. Fortunately, adrenaline masks the pain and gives you the strength and attitude you need to hold your own. Immediately after pulling your arm free, you may notice that your hand doesn't respond normally to your efforts to operate it. If you are unlucky, a blood vessel gets hit and getting the bleeding to stop hours later is a real b*tch. This is very different from a "warning" bite where you normally get a bunch of perforations in your hand/arm/leg in a few seconds, but they aren't deep and everything is on the surface.

The situation you describe on the Michigander is precisely what I was obliquely referring to in an earlier post. That is what I consider a dog problem, but it sounds like you know how to handle yourself. Most dog bites are harmless, but they can do quite a bit of damage if they really mean it.

BTW, I was not meaning to advocate pepper spray. I don't carry weapons because I think they are more harm than good overall. However, I understand they make some people feel more comfortable.

John Wilke

My longest chase by a dog was a half mile. Local farm dog needed exercise I guess and just jogged along next to us, tail wagging, checking back once and a while to make sure he could still see home. We weren't goinig that slow either. Funny.

Worst dog chase was on a bike trail ... dog thought my front wheel was a hoop to jump through ... it wasn't ... and down I went. By the time I raised my head off the ground he was GONE .

jw

Keith99

The closest call I had and the one that was both scarry and funny were both on Fernwood Pacific within about 1/2 mile.

The close call shows how everything said here can fail. On a climb the dog was lieing in the shade behind a tree only feet from the road. No warning at all. Luckily the dog was satified with one snap that missed. If it wanted me and had good aim it had me.

Different day, almost at the top of this part of the climb three BIG dogs sitting on a knoll overlooking the road. They come charging down. I think I'm screwed. Then I notice they are not barking and tails are wagging. They are almost to me when I realize that I could still get hurt if they jump on me. Clip out. Pet dogs. Biggest problem is geting them to go back home so they won't get hit by a car. (Made note to self, if that other dog bothers me again try to find my friends and go for a short trip so they can have a dog to dog talk).

I've never had a repeat with a dog. These days if I do I'll just go home and get my two so that they can expain to any dog that goes after me that it is NOT a good idea.

yak

Adrenaline does wonders for your sprint

nakota

I didn't say anything about him slowing down or a red light. Neither was involved. Please don't rewrite my comment to fit your argument.

Once more: Dog chased rider, dog hit rider, dog took chunk out of rider. Rider was knocked down, rider fell INTO the path of a car coming up from behind. Fortunately, the driver was able to stop.

Which of those injuries wasn't significant? I'm sure you're not referring to the missing flesh and the rabies shots.

In the example I cited, ignoring the dog (and the hazard it posed) was precisely what caused the rider's injuries.

If he had not assumed it couldn't catch him or hurt him, he more than likely wouldn't have gotten hurt.

Being smart will keep you intact.

phoebeisis

Nakota-the ********** after my statements meant I was ASKING??IF HE HAD TO SLOW DOWN BECAUSE YOU MENTIONED HE WAS "caught him in motion,in traffic".I assumed the "in traffic" meant that he had to slow down because of the traffic.I didn't know it meant he had been caught going full speed in traffic.I should have been a bit more clear.
However,I stand by my contention that the distraction is of more concern-for athletic adult males-than the bite.Show me some numbers that say otherwise?
Must admit the stories above-inbred midwestern hillbillies and their bloodthirsty killer canine consorts,and gunless fearful Canadians-are real eyeopeners.I'm not discounting these stories;the site below says that 40% of dog owners acquired their dog for protection???I knew folks were getting 'guard dogs",but I had no idea they were so prevalent.I figured it was urban thugs,and rich yuppies getting attack dogs-not midwestern farmers and rural Canadians.The 40% who got their dogs for protection was a real surprise!The dogs they get are big"guard type"dogs.
OK-some numbers-20 deaths per year from dog attacks,mainly children and elderly-4.5 million bites/year.In the deaths Pits and Rotts are disproportionately represented. 40% get their dogs for protection-Dobermans-Shepards,Rotts etc.This is from dogexpert.com
Dogs-their DMF OWNERS-BREEDERS-are a problem.I didn't find numbers on adult males on bikes,but I would hazard a guess that it is extremely rare-maybe 10,000 times less likely than being killed by a car.I'll concentrate on the traffic and put the hammer down-maybe wiggle a bit.Thanks.Charlie