Getting somewhere is my purpose too! How is it an example of diverergence between concepts and reality? I and countless other vehicular cyclists find that following the "hypothetical rules" allows us to achieve our purpose (getting somewhere) with greater safety (fewer close calls and other incidents) and comfort, and causes others (motorists) to treat us better (more respectfully) to boot.

YMMV.

My mileage certainly does vary. I and countless other cyclists find that motorists do not alter their behavior based on what lane position a cyclist chooses, which lane a cyclist chooses, whether they signal or not, or anything else. Continue to use whatever methods work well for you, by all means! Everyone needs to do what works for them in their particular environment.

Yes I do!

are we going to do the argument sketch from Monty Python? I love that one.

This is fascinating, especially considering you live in Anaheim, and I in San Diego, where driver behavior cannot be all that different. I know an LCI who lives in Long Beach who shares my experience, not yours. How can that be? Is one of us missing something? Or are drivers in Anaheim that different from drivers in San Diego and Long Beach?

Have you ever heard or read about "herding traffic" as a cyclist? Are you contending that it is not possible for a cyclist to herd Anaheim traffic?

Over 3 years ago (when I first joined) I posted,

"I'm looking forward for conversations I don't normally have with most of the people I know."

I still stand by that. The community is unique, and I enjoy the coversations and debates.

I think I have refined what I know and even have been steered in the direction of more information to understand more.

Have I changed much? Good question. Maybe a little, but I already have been riding for a long time and have read quite a bit and taken a couple of courses even, so I don't know if it's been that much of a change. Most of the info here is good and something i've already read or experianced on my own.

It's good to hear different perspectives though.

Or could it be vastly different roads and conditions in slightly different areas. East county San Diego in and around Rancho San Diego and on up to Alpine is nothing like West county San Diego in and around the beach areas.

While one would think drivers would be pretty much the same in both locations, there is a great chance that the western folks never get to the eastern part of the county as there is perhaps little to attract them there. So while one may find hurried Mercedes and Volvo et. al. drivers out on the west end... struggling in bumper to bumper traffic to get to air conditioned offices while talking on cell phones; the easty county is more likely to harbor pickup trucks and folks driving longer open distances and being used to other slow traffic such as horses and tractors...

So even though some LCI lives in Long Beach, and someone else lives "relatively nearby" in Anaheim, that does not mean they encounter the same type of motorists nor the same road conditions at all.

My old commute in east county out to El Cajon nary had a 45MPH road on it at all, nor bike lanes. My west county commute is nothing but 45MPH+ roads and all with bike lanes. Vastly different feelings, and dramatic difference in traffic.

Funny how "San Diego, a Cyclists Paradise" shows upcoming rides primarily in quieter eastern county... https://efgh.com/bike/rides.htm

Guess the "fun" rides are not the ones on the busy central corridor boulevards.

I've ridden all over the county. I agree the roads are vastly different to the east than along the coast. However, I've discerned no general difference in the "herdability" or adaptability of motorists to my behavior no matter where I ride (inside as well as outside of SD county, even in Europe). No matter where I ride, the vast, vast majority do as I would like them to do in response to what I do, and once in a while someone honks or something.

Personnally I ride according to the laws, and perhaps some unspoken customs or rules of the road, using common sense where there is no law to cover the situation. I don't and never have seen the need to label it and attach a bunch of dogma and wacky theories cooked up by some guy who is a self-proclaimed expert because he edits a wiki definition.

Yes, I have changed my mind since coming to BF...I used to respect HH and a few others, but then it became evident that they were zealots and more interested in promoting some brand and its associated dogma that applying common sense strategies, techniques and tactics to real world cycling. Now I just consider them crackpots. My riding has not changed...I ride the same way now that I did years ago when I was commuting to from home to school to work...and guess what, I have not had an accident involving a motor vehicle in the 30+ years since then. VC is nothing but branding of techniques that have been in-use, in the real world, for decades, adapting as our road-warrior culture has evolved (or de-evolved, depending upon your point of view). Just because a bunch of politicians decided to attach a bunch of dogma and hocus-pocus to the brand in some attempt at gain fame as an 'advocate' does make what they are attempting to pedal any more valid...or any more 'theirs'.

You want to change my mind? Deeds speak louder than hot air.

Then again, you ignore those motorists that might well bother others... so how can you generalize about motorists all over?

I have been offered beers on rides in the east county, and had beers thrown at me in the western part of the county. I suppose that some might say that I was "offered" beers in both places, just in slightly different ways.

Remember, traffic is predictable, but the individual motorist is not.

Yes folks, that's county...not country.

That's what I think too. Which is why I take the following actions when I ride:
* Wear high-vis clothing and a helmet.
* Make sure my bike is mechanically sound.
* Keep my eyes and ears open.
* Be predicitable and in control.
* Find various ways to leave myself an "out" should a driver do something stupid.
* Try not to do anything too stupid myself.

I don't try to get in arguments, spoken or otherwise, with people behind the wheel of several tons of metal. Nor do I try to control, educate or "herd" them. I just try to flow in a way that seems safe, enjoying my ride within the perameters of the above. Maybe I'm right. Maybe not. It seems to work for me.

I've got nothing against advocacy. In fact, I'm glad this forum exists, but I only visit here about once every six months or so. I guess deep down I'd rather be on my bike than reading or writing about it.

Due to discussions in this forum, I've managed to iron out every rough spot I used to encounter during my daily commute. I've made slight to drastic changes in my road position (depending on the road in question) and started using a mirror to make position decisions easier. I also have gotten very good at arguing with relatives about why cyclists have as much right to the roads as motor vehicle drivers do. And in doing so, I've provided plenty of entertainment for all involved and hopefully changed a few opinions.

Oh, but you freely use the term "label" even though people have been labeling things long before anyone coined that term. What's up with that???

my perspective has widened to further appreciate roadway striping that benefits bicyclists. My perspective has broadened to realize that in bicycling, just like in mountaineering, there is a certain class of "expert" pontificator, blowhard 'know-it-alls' in both sports, that in reality do NOT engage in their respective sports as much as they like to talk about them-

In climbing parlance, they are called 'armchair mountaineers.' This would be someone who, for example, would drive an RV on vacation, then go back to his buddies and talk about climbing in Yosemite. These 'armchair mountaineers' consider themselves the definitive resource for climbing, they know exactly what type of protection is needed, and they know exactly what to do in every situation.

'Armchair mountaineers' have all the anwsers, but its all vapid textbook stuff, and not based on the brotherhood of the rope, so most armchair mountaineers make poor actual climbers. Actual climbers usually consider any advice from the armchair pretty worthless....

its like this...."OH, if I was at the third step with Mallory on Everest back in the 20's, we would have made it to the top! I would have taken my boots off, and climbed in my ragg wool socks, to help me adhere to the snow and rime ice on the difficult bit at 29,000 feet....yep, i would have taken off my boots and climbed in my socks, dontchya know? We could have made it. I would have giving Mallory my oxygen equipment, because everyone knows you don't need oxygen to get to the top of Everest" ad nasueum, etcetera...... this type of character is held in high disdain amongst the climbing community.


My perspectives have come to realize there are people deserving of the 'armchair expert' label in this forum. It has made me even more aware of my caveman biking, and how, bluntly, 'YMMV.'

"YMMV" your mileage may vary ..... yeah, no doubt!
I wonder if it possible to hook a cyclocomputer up to a RV?

I suppose I've further appreciated just how important it is to raise questions, stimulate discussion and ponder the responses, rather than say, this is it, period.

Everyone has a different point of view. Question is, is that point of view valid for you (even a little bit)?

What he said^^^ goes for me, too.

I used to post in A&S and came with what I thought was a pretty open mind and willingness to learn and to dialogue. But despite the many claims of change etc. in this thread I would be hard pressed to say I actually see it demonstrated in other threads.

If I've changed at all it would be that I'm more committed than I've been in years to having a voice in my own local advocacy groups. I've been around cycling for a long time and what seems to have happened is while a whole bunch of us were out riding and racing and touring and commuting a whole other bunch were spending just as many hours talking about it. The ones that like to hear themselves talk have tended to become the vocal advocates and they have spent time and energy assembling statistics and philosophies and policies while those who ride just get to be better riders and don't think all that much language is going to make them or anyone else any better or a safer bike rider.

So, I visit this forum now for entertainment purposes only and learn far more from spending an hour on the bike than an hour arguing about what "VC" is or isn't. I hold nothing against those who enjoy the discourse but I challenge the idea that all that argument makes one a better cyclist just as all that cycling doesn't necessarily make one a better on-line debator.

"Steal the Porsche, Luke." voiceover, James Earl Jones.

They're the experienced people you disagree with. This is the biggest problem with the A&S forum. Several members would rather attack other forum members than discuss the issues in the thread.

My biggest change of perspective came before joining the forums. I read the pro-bike lane and bike lane skeptic arguments. I noticed that proponents of bike lanes focused on making cyclists feel safer, and bike lane skeptics focused on helping cyclists ride safer.

On the other hand, genec and a few others have turned me from being anti-bike lane to being a bike lane skeptic (they are generally a bad idea, but there are a few situations when they can be helpful).

As others have said, arguing here has also helped me figure out which arguments work and don't work.

As to helmets, I'm convinced that there's no evidence to say that they make cycling safer. This is counter-intuitive, but facts is facts. I still wear one because I know helmets have saved me from experiencing pain, even if I can't prove they have saved me from brain injury. For the same reason, I think it's unwise to discourage helmet use. Let people make up their own mind.

Actually, Daily commute, i'm talking about an 'expert' blowhard that drives an RV and confuses that for a bicycle, and actually posted a snippet of advice to 'ride your bike like (he) drives an RV, pulling over to the side to allow motorcycles to pass in narrow lanes. You ride your bike like this 'expert' drives an RV.

That is an example of 'armchair bicycling.'

So is driving to your dentist, bothering the guy about not riding his bike to the office, then using him a poster boy of people that don't bike commute - more armchair bicycling....

driving a car to work the majority of the time does not make someone an expert traffic cyclist, it makes someone an 'armchair' traffic bicyclist.

This is my opinion. I see armchair mountaineering, armchair quarterbacking, and armchair bicycling in the same light, because it is a similar phenomenom....blowhard, not very expert, 'expert' commentary from afar.

This is not a debate about the validity of velotransit or the methodology of either taking advantage of roadway striping that benefits bicyclists, or ignoring roadway striping that benefits bicyclists.

However, Dailycommute chose to divide the clan into those groupings. I think it is unwise to recommend to people they either ignore the potential benefits of helmets, and also unwise to recommend to people to ignore roadway striping that benefits bicyclists.

I certainly think it is unwise to ascribe expertise to an armchair quarterback in any pursuit.

I agree. Discouraging helmet use is as pointless as the juvenile snobbery that is directed at those who choose not to wear one. Promoting helmet use is a good thing, making not wearing a helmet some high crime against society and the lords of PC is just plain stupid.

Obviously I drive - a lot...so I may not go as far as you do in this regard Bek, but I think that you, I and others have come to pretty much the same conclusion over time - that certain people are long on theories and short on actual experience. The fact that these certain people pretty much look down their noses at utility cyclists and other cyclists who don't conform to their narrow definition of a cyclist kinda reinforces that notion, dontcha think?

Chip, I think notions that there is only one way to skin a cat is the wrong way to approach a herd of wild felines...

a "notion" there is only one way to ride a bike is so ludicrous it is laughable. Trying to advance this "notion" to the detriment of other bicyclists is pretty pathetic.


Not all bicycling is done according to dogma. Wheels on the ground is when it matters.

Riding amongst the metal smoke monsters demands more than blind faith or a subscript honed on the internet.

I guess it's kind of like doing your job, talking with friends or reading the newspaper each day. You can ask yourself, have I learned anything and not be so sure, but over the years, I think you notice how much you learn untill you've been at it a while and then encounter someone who hasn't had the exposure and they seem so nieve.