Bicyclist warned about night riding, then killed a little bit later by a car
08-06-10, 12:25 PM
#76
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my gawd, we are what makes A&S, A&S, ain't we? 
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
08-06-10, 12:28 PM
#77
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These days if you are just caught parked, trying to sleep it off, you're gonna go to jail.
"To protect and serve" used to mean something...even if today "to arrest and prosecute" is more accurate.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
08-06-10, 12:29 PM
#78
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I'm not saying that.
I don't think it's common. And, where I live, you'd spend all night providing transportation for ninja cyclists!
It's a bit hard to push a car on a sidewalk.
Anyway, I don't think the analogy applies very well (and I explained why).
Note that there wasn't any sidewalk where the collision occurred. It's a bit odd too that he was going north to a place (Shell Point) that was south.
Bad place to be riding at night without lights.
https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...169.36,,0,8.17
=================
If the officer has "discretion" in his actions, then that means there is a range of acceptable actions he's allowed to take. He doesn't have discretion to take an unacceptable action, obviously.
If the action he took is acceptable, he isn't negligent (ie, liable).
The question then is whether a warning to "keep off of the road" is an acceptable action or not.
I don't think it's common. And, where I live, you'd spend all night providing transportation for ninja cyclists!
It's a bit hard to push a car on a sidewalk.
Anyway, I don't think the analogy applies very well (and I explained why).
Note that there wasn't any sidewalk where the collision occurred. It's a bit odd too that he was going north to a place (Shell Point) that was south.
Bad place to be riding at night without lights.
https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...169.36,,0,8.17
=================
If the officer has "discretion" in his actions, then that means there is a range of acceptable actions he's allowed to take. He doesn't have discretion to take an unacceptable action, obviously.
If the action he took is acceptable, he isn't negligent (ie, liable).
The question then is whether a warning to "keep off of the road" is an acceptable action or not.
Last edited by njkayaker; 08-06-10 at 12:36 PM.
08-06-10, 12:35 PM
#79
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I'm not saying that.
I don't think it's common. And, where I live, you'd spend all night providing transportation for ninja cyclists!
It's a bit hard to push a car on a sidewalk.
Anyway, I don't think it applies very well (and I explained why).
Note that there wasn't any sidewalk where the accident occurred. It's a bit odd too that he was going north to a place (Shell Point) that was south.
=================
If the officer has "discretion" in his actions, then that means there is a range of acceptable actions he's allowed to take. He doesn't have discretion to take an unacceptable action, obviously.
If the action he took is acceptable, he isn't negligent (ie, liable).
The question then is whether a warning to "keep off of the road" is an acceptable action or not.
I don't think it's common. And, where I live, you'd spend all night providing transportation for ninja cyclists!
It's a bit hard to push a car on a sidewalk.
Anyway, I don't think it applies very well (and I explained why).
Note that there wasn't any sidewalk where the accident occurred. It's a bit odd too that he was going north to a place (Shell Point) that was south.
=================
If the officer has "discretion" in his actions, then that means there is a range of acceptable actions he's allowed to take. He doesn't have discretion to take an unacceptable action, obviously.
If the action he took is acceptable, he isn't negligent (ie, liable).
The question then is whether a warning to "keep off of the road" is an acceptable action or not.
As far as giving people rides and such, yeah, it isn't as common anymore...because cops just don't have the discretion they used to have - partially due to situations like this where the city/department/officer got hammered by a lawsuit.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
08-06-10, 08:18 PM
#80
The Drive Side is Within
The worst thing about this thread is that someone dies, and if I'm really honest with myself about it, there is entertainment value to me in debating it online. I hope that I've at least been respectful.
Digital Cowboy-- the guy's name was Detron. In South Carolina. It's very likely an afr. amer. name. I teach in a majority black high school, and have nothing against names that are indicative of any particular race or ethnicity. Cops and law and race are intertwined. Just as much in my state as they are in the South, IMO.
Chipcom-- reductio ad absurdum is different than devil's advocate, I think. I'm actually honestly behind what I'm putting out here in this thread. I am glad cops are allowed to be and expected to be human, not ticket and summons writing automatons. When it comes to serious stuff--- felonies, serious misdemeanors-- cops need to play by the book. But infractions such as the one being discussed here must be within the realm of discretion.
Discretion does not necessarily lead to Judge Dredd...
Digital Cowboy-- the guy's name was Detron. In South Carolina. It's very likely an afr. amer. name. I teach in a majority black high school, and have nothing against names that are indicative of any particular race or ethnicity. Cops and law and race are intertwined. Just as much in my state as they are in the South, IMO.
Chipcom-- reductio ad absurdum is different than devil's advocate, I think. I'm actually honestly behind what I'm putting out here in this thread. I am glad cops are allowed to be and expected to be human, not ticket and summons writing automatons. When it comes to serious stuff--- felonies, serious misdemeanors-- cops need to play by the book. But infractions such as the one being discussed here must be within the realm of discretion.
Discretion does not necessarily lead to Judge Dredd...
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The bicycle, the bicycle surely, should always be the vehicle of novelists and poets. Christopher Morley
The bicycle, the bicycle surely, should always be the vehicle of novelists and poets. Christopher Morley
08-07-10, 12:19 AM
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If one was present...otherwise we might just have them park it and give them a ride home or call someone to come drive home for them.
These days if you are just caught parked, trying to sleep it off, you're gonna go to jail.
"To protect and serve" used to mean something...even if today "to arrest and prosecute" is more accurate.
These days if you are just caught parked, trying to sleep it off, you're gonna go to jail.
"To protect and serve" used to mean something...even if today "to arrest and prosecute" is more accurate.
08-07-10, 12:34 AM
#82
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The worst thing about this thread is that someone dies, and if I'm really honest with myself about it, there is entertainment value to me in debating it online. I hope that I've at least been respectful.
Digital Cowboy-- the guy's name was Detron. In South Carolina. It's very likely an afr. amer. name. I teach in a majority black high school, and have nothing against names that are indicative of any particular race or ethnicity. Cops and law and race are intertwined. Just as much in my state as they are in the South, IMO.
Digital Cowboy-- the guy's name was Detron. In South Carolina. It's very likely an afr. amer. name. I teach in a majority black high school, and have nothing against names that are indicative of any particular race or ethnicity. Cops and law and race are intertwined. Just as much in my state as they are in the South, IMO.
Chipcom-- reductio ad absurdum is different than devil's advocate, I think. I'm actually honestly behind what I'm putting out here in this thread. I am glad cops are allowed to be and expected to be human, not ticket and summons writing automatons. When it comes to serious stuff--- felonies, serious misdemeanors-- cops need to play by the book. But infractions such as the one being discussed here must be within the realm of discretion.
Discretion does not necessarily lead to Judge Dredd...
Discretion does not necessarily lead to Judge Dredd...
08-07-10, 12:40 AM
#83
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EDIT TO ADD: and Shanda Lear is in her 60s.
Last edited by KD5NRH; 08-07-10 at 12:43 AM.
08-07-10, 12:54 AM
#84
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Now that I agree with. And I think you're right that the reason we see this drop in reasonable discretion is because of the litigiousness of our society. It's the root of a lot of problems, IMO...
08-07-10, 12:57 AM
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I dunno, seems to me my car has lights on it. They shine forwards, so anything I'm going to hit gets perfectly well illuminated regardless of reflectors and the like.
Pedestrians aren't required to have blinking lights, I've somehow avoided hitting one.
Just sayin.
Pedestrians aren't required to have blinking lights, I've somehow avoided hitting one.
Just sayin.
08-07-10, 03:37 AM
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As has been said on another forum, they used to be "peace officers." When so many became "law enforcement officers" was when the problems really picked up.
08-07-10, 05:22 AM
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It has been established legally that response organizations do not have a duty to respond (think LA Riots), only that if they do respond they respond appropriately. In this case the officer did not, in my opinion, have a duty to stop the cyclist. He did. Were his actions appropriate...were they consistent with his departmental policy, his training, his experience? In all liklihood yes. YOU, meaning everyone reading this, DO NOT WANT discretionary latitude taken away from officers. Would this keep someone from filing suit? No way. Would the cyclists family win the suit? Not very likely at all.
"The deputy reported having trouble seeing Jenkins and told him to stay out of the road before sending Jenkins on his way."
Had the subject simply followed the deputy's instructions, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
"The deputy reported having trouble seeing Jenkins and told him to stay out of the road before sending Jenkins on his way."
Had the subject simply followed the deputy's instructions, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
08-07-10, 06:07 AM
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No points for him!
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
08-07-10, 06:10 AM
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). We don't know that and it makes the assumption that riding on the sidewalk would have somehow protected him from harm. I think we all know that isn't the case. 
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
08-07-10, 06:43 AM
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The bottom line in my opinion is that the officer's actions were reasonable and that they would withstand judicial scrutiny.
08-07-10, 11:52 AM
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I have since gone from that, to minimal "emergency" type lights, to the pb superflash/blaze combo, to now, where I have a cygolite 200 lumen "real" headlight and a radbot 1000 rear. at this rate, I'll be in reflective vest and helmet mirror territory in no time!
Edit: thats not just any old "black jacket", thats a black leather 5 pocket. And I will still ride at night in it. thats why I invested in good lights.
08-07-10, 02:34 PM
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Yes, those cases have always struck me as counterproductive. I'd think we should encourage people who may realize that they've had a few too many to stop and sleep it off by the side of the road. The policy of still finding them guilty of DUI just provides an incentive for them to try to make it home instead.
08-07-10, 05:34 PM
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How about the guy who got a DWI walking his bicycle across his front yard to his shed? ?
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