View Poll Results: Helmet wearing habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
178
10.66%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
94
5.63%
I've always worn a helmet
648
38.80%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
408
24.43%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
342
20.48%
Voters: 1670. You may not vote on this poll
The helmet thread
11-07-12, 12:45 PM
#4026
Senior Member
Well, I give him as much credit as anyone else, including you, so when he says he's got a handle on the physics/math, I believe him. Maybe not all of what he has to say, but on that end, sure. He says his helmet deformed in accordance to the way it's supposed to, I accept that more than the usual, "My helmet cracked, so see? it saved my life!", because he knows what to look for and the forces involved with the material better than your average bear. Most of the people you bash here have no idea how to measure 3d deformation or that they should be looking for it in the first place.
We're still dealing with politics here, so yes, both sides are as correct as they are wrong. Just depends on your POV on this political issue. The studies both sides post don't do anything to clear up the issue because both sides use studies out of context, creating this confusing political divide for anyone coming into this for information.
In the end, despite his claims, I don't think a helmet will protect me any more than I did a few days ago before his post; a helmet won't protect me any less; but I will continue to wear one.. ...And you obviously aren't going to suddenly don a helmet because of what he says.
Again, it's the same tired "Helmet saved me!" "Did not!" bickering, just with bigger words. Do you know that his helmet didn't save his life just as he asserts? No. Does he know that it did? No. Just dealing in politics and probablities based on inconclusive studies, personal anecdote and experience. Again.
We're still dealing with politics here, so yes, both sides are as correct as they are wrong. Just depends on your POV on this political issue. The studies both sides post don't do anything to clear up the issue because both sides use studies out of context, creating this confusing political divide for anyone coming into this for information.
In the end, despite his claims, I don't think a helmet will protect me any more than I did a few days ago before his post; a helmet won't protect me any less; but I will continue to wear one.. ...And you obviously aren't going to suddenly don a helmet because of what he says.
Again, it's the same tired "Helmet saved me!" "Did not!" bickering, just with bigger words. Do you know that his helmet didn't save his life just as he asserts? No. Does he know that it did? No. Just dealing in politics and probablities based on inconclusive studies, personal anecdote and experience. Again.
Last edited by 350htrr; 11-07-12 at 12:52 PM.
11-07-12, 02:12 PM
#4027
Senior Member
It's been established in this here thread that personal anecdotes are out. Like this most recent one. Even though personal experience means something to an individual, there's nothing about it which is valid in another's case.
I wear a helmet based partly on my own experience, but that's no reason anyone else should.
11-07-12, 03:29 PM
#4028
Senior Member
...and for everyone who falls and says a helmet helped, there's someone out there who fell and didn't hit their head. Or injuries, including head/brain, were so severe, a helmet didn't matter. Or they haven't fallen in such a way that a helmet would have helped.
It's been established in this here thread that personal anecdotes are out. Like this most recent one. Even though personal experience means something to an individual, there's nothing about it which is valid in another's case.
I wear a helmet based partly on my own experience, but that's no reason anyone else should.
It's been established in this here thread that personal anecdotes are out. Like this most recent one. Even though personal experience means something to an individual, there's nothing about it which is valid in another's case.
I wear a helmet based partly on my own experience, but that's no reason anyone else should.
Basically I guess what I am trying to say is that learning from other peoples mistakes is a lot better than ignoring them...
11-07-12, 03:55 PM
#4029
Senior Member
Personal anecdotes/experiences are a good way to learn from other peoples experiences/mistakes and any particular possible outcome of a particular action/event, and should not be summarily dismissed...
Basically I guess what I am trying to say is that learning from other peoples mistakes is a lot better than ignoring them...
Basically I guess what I am trying to say is that learning from other peoples mistakes is a lot better than ignoring them...
Are you down with learning from those who's mistake was wearing a helmet?
11-07-12, 03:59 PM
#4030
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11-07-12, 04:15 PM
#4031
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I suspect not. In fact, I suspect that what you really mean is that anecdotes/experiences should not be summarily dismissed as long as they support your predetermined conclusions.
11-07-12, 04:20 PM
#4032
Senior Member
The graph below comes from this article on the site of the Dutch bicycle association: https://www.fietsersbond.nl/node/2070
I don't expect you to understand Dutch so let me translate: It plots for various countries the % of bikers wearing a helmet against the number of death cyclists per billion km. If anything, this should tell you that a helmet is by far not the first thing we should be worried about when it comes to bicycle safety.
I don't expect you to understand Dutch so let me translate: It plots for various countries the % of bikers wearing a helmet against the number of death cyclists per billion km. If anything, this should tell you that a helmet is by far not the first thing we should be worried about when it comes to bicycle safety.
11-07-12, 04:25 PM
#4033
Senior Member
As for a scientific study, yes one MUST filter out all the personal views, but for a personal decision, one MUST learn from others experiences/probable mistakes and go with the prevailing view, but take it with a grain of salt...
11-07-12, 04:34 PM
#4034
Senior Member
Which is different from the reasoning of those who don't wear helmets, how?
11-07-12, 05:14 PM
#4035
Senior Member
The non-helmet group seems to have decided to ignore (and not learn from) other peoples experiences/mistakes as their personal mistakes haven't caused then any harm yet, and are believing the supposedly scientific studies/conclusions... Thus no helmet is better than wearing a helmet so they don't wear one...
Last edited by 350htrr; 11-07-12 at 05:17 PM.
11-07-12, 05:26 PM
#4036
Senior Member
I decide to wear a helmet because of my non belief of these so called studies, believing more in my real experiences/mistakes and also taken other peoples experiences/mistakes as I have been told about, and... I put on a helmet believing over all it's better.
The non-helmet group seems to have decided to ignore (and not learn from) other peoples experiences/mistakes as their personal mistakes haven't caused then any harm yet, and are believing the supposedly scientific studies/conclusions... Thus no helmet is better than wearing a helmet so they don't wear one...
The non-helmet group seems to have decided to ignore (and not learn from) other peoples experiences/mistakes as their personal mistakes haven't caused then any harm yet, and are believing the supposedly scientific studies/conclusions... Thus no helmet is better than wearing a helmet so they don't wear one...
Your reasoning is no different; your conclusions are. You admit that it is just your opinion, yet you discount the mere studied opinions of those who disagree with you.
Last edited by mconlonx; 11-07-12 at 05:37 PM.
11-07-12, 05:27 PM
#4037
Senior Member
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With over 4,000 posts in this thread, I doubt I can bring anything new to the discussion, but I'm going to try anyway.
A couple days ago, I took a spill. It was almost a non-event; I ended up with a skinned knee and elbow, and a sore hip. I also noticed a stiff neck that became apparent long after I returned home. It felt like whiplash, and I didn't think much about it at the time.
That was Monday. I didn't ride yesterday, but decided to go for an easy workout this morning. When I started to put the helmet on, I saw a big scuff on the side. I then saw a crack. Apparently my head hit the pavement hard enough to ruin the helmet, and I didn't even notice at the time.
I'm wondering what might have happened without the helmet.
Anyone who chooses not to wear a helmet knows better than I what the value of their head is.
A couple days ago, I took a spill. It was almost a non-event; I ended up with a skinned knee and elbow, and a sore hip. I also noticed a stiff neck that became apparent long after I returned home. It felt like whiplash, and I didn't think much about it at the time.
That was Monday. I didn't ride yesterday, but decided to go for an easy workout this morning. When I started to put the helmet on, I saw a big scuff on the side. I then saw a crack. Apparently my head hit the pavement hard enough to ruin the helmet, and I didn't even notice at the time.
I'm wondering what might have happened without the helmet.
Anyone who chooses not to wear a helmet knows better than I what the value of their head is.
11-07-12, 05:51 PM
#4039
Senior Member
^^^ That's what I thought. I.e. you're as much an ignorant tool as you think the bare-headers here are. JMO
Your reasoning is no different; your conclusions are. You admit that it is just your opinion, yet you discount the mere studied opinions of those who disagree with you.
Your reasoning is no different; your conclusions are. You admit that it is just your opinion, yet you discount the mere studied opinions of those who disagree with you.
They live life according to their experience, and what information they think is more relevant to them...
I discard/disregard their piece of paper, they discard/disregard other peoples real life experiences... Of course we come to a different decision...
The ONLY reason I'm here is to try and make people on the fence think first before they decide whether to wear a helmet or not.
I think once you have decided one way or the other change will be hard either way...
11-07-12, 06:01 PM
#4040
Bicikli Huszár
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You would have bled out and died a miserable death.
... or, more likely, it would have hurt more, and you may have needed to apply first aid. Stitches at worst. Those are the sorts of things helmets do, in fact, seem to help with. JMO.
... or, more likely, it would have hurt more, and you may have needed to apply first aid. Stitches at worst. Those are the sorts of things helmets do, in fact, seem to help with. JMO.
11-07-12, 06:04 PM
#4041
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:EDIT: FWIW, the "common-sense" option to me is as obvious as it is to you: bicycles are safe, and I feel no more in danger riding a bike to the grocery store than walking to the mall. I'd find wearing a helmet for errand-running as silly as walking around with a helmet downtown. And the benefit is approximately the same.
Last edited by sudo bike; 11-07-12 at 06:07 PM.
11-07-12, 06:10 PM
#4042
Senior Member
But people have posted their real life experiences that run contrary to yours, so whether you're deciding based on "real-life experiences" (which is anecdotal, and there's a reason it's considered a far inferior form of evidence of something ) or "pieces of paper" (studies), you're filtering out some you don't like to hear.
One person crashes and only has a bump on the head even tho he wasn't wearing a helmet.
Another person crashes and has a weeks worth of memory gone and was wearing a helmet, thus the conundrum...
What would have happened if the first person was wearing a helmet?
What would have happened if the second person wasn't wearing a helmet?
I can assure you that no piece of paper would/can answer those two questions... But maybe a 100 years + of people saying what happened to them may shine a bit of light onto the subject? But oh no that's anecdotal evidence and can't be used scientifically, but maybe should be used personally to decide what one should do...
Last edited by 350htrr; 11-07-12 at 06:15 PM.
11-07-12, 06:18 PM
#4043
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Yes, but people have different life experiences...
One person crashes and only has a bump on the head even tho he wasn't wearing a helmet.
Another person crashes and has a weeks worth of memory gone and was wearing a helmet, thus the conundrum...
What would have happened if the first person was wearing a helmet?
What would have happened if the second person wasn't wearing a helmet?
I can assure you that no piece of paper would/can answer those two questions... But maybe a 100 years + of people saying what happened to them may shine a bit of light onto the subject? But oh no that's anecdotal evidence and can't be used scientifically, but maybe should be used personally to decide what one should do...
One person crashes and only has a bump on the head even tho he wasn't wearing a helmet.
Another person crashes and has a weeks worth of memory gone and was wearing a helmet, thus the conundrum...
What would have happened if the first person was wearing a helmet?
What would have happened if the second person wasn't wearing a helmet?
I can assure you that no piece of paper would/can answer those two questions... But maybe a 100 years + of people saying what happened to them may shine a bit of light onto the subject? But oh no that's anecdotal evidence and can't be used scientifically, but maybe should be used personally to decide what one should do...
11-07-12, 06:19 PM
#4044
Senior Member
WOW, Are we ACTUALLY having a REAL discussion on this subject?
11-07-12, 06:23 PM
#4045
Senior Member
Yes it is me and my opinion, but then so are studies, or they can be, sometimes they end up as someones opinion... Like who ever paid for it?
11-07-12, 06:33 PM
#4046
Senior Member
Exactly, I live my life according to my experience and what information I think is more relevant to me...
They live life according to their experience, and what information they think is more relevant to them...
I discard/disregard their piece of paper, they discard/disregard other peoples real life experiences... Of course we come to a different decision...
The ONLY reason I'm here is to try and make people on the fence think first before they decide whether to wear a helmet or not. I think once you have decided one way or the other change will be hard either way...
They live life according to their experience, and what information they think is more relevant to them...
I discard/disregard their piece of paper, they discard/disregard other peoples real life experiences... Of course we come to a different decision...
The ONLY reason I'm here is to try and make people on the fence think first before they decide whether to wear a helmet or not.
I think once you have decided one way or the other change will be hard either way...Why do you assume the opinions of the bare headers are based only on studies you don't agree with instead of their own first hand experience on the matter?
Last edited by mconlonx; 11-07-12 at 06:37 PM.
11-07-12, 06:42 PM
#4047
Senior Member
Here is my PERSONAL experience...
I have probably crashed/fallen off the bike 10 times in my life, 9 of those times my head never touched the ground... So mathematically in my case the helmet was TOTTALY USELESS 9 out of 10 times, I could write a paper saying that 90% of the time you crash the helmet is TOTTALY USELESS and be correct. But 1 time I lost one weeks worth of memory even tho I was wearing a helmet, so, was the helmet useless or not? Hard to prove what COULD have happened so my 9 out of t 10 stands and wearing a helmet is not needed... Isn't that how it works?
EDIT; Oh hell why not add a curve ball and actually come up with a hypotheses that the helmet actually may have increased the chance on my 1 week of memory loss happening, who can prove different?
I have probably crashed/fallen off the bike 10 times in my life, 9 of those times my head never touched the ground... So mathematically in my case the helmet was TOTTALY USELESS 9 out of 10 times, I could write a paper saying that 90% of the time you crash the helmet is TOTTALY USELESS and be correct. But 1 time I lost one weeks worth of memory even tho I was wearing a helmet, so, was the helmet useless or not? Hard to prove what COULD have happened so my 9 out of t 10 stands and wearing a helmet is not needed... Isn't that how it works?
EDIT; Oh hell why not add a curve ball and actually come up with a hypotheses that the helmet actually may have increased the chance on my 1 week of memory loss happening, who can prove different?
Last edited by 350htrr; 11-07-12 at 06:49 PM.
11-07-12, 06:44 PM
#4048
Senior Member
Why do you discount the personal experiences of others in favor of your own? Or rather, why do you expect others to give your personal experience more credence than their own?
Why do you assume the opinions of the bare headers are based only on studies you don't agree with instead of their own first hand experience on the matter?
Why do you assume the opinions of the bare headers are based only on studies you don't agree with instead of their own first hand experience on the matter?
11-07-12, 06:48 PM
#4049
Senior Member
Others' conclusions. You are not qualified to comment; you are not them.
Your assumptions about their conclusions could be as wrong as their assumptions about your conclusions.
11-07-12, 06:50 PM
#4050
Senior Member
Here is my PERSONAL experience...
I have probably crashed/fallen off the bike 10 times in my life, 9 of those times my head never touched the ground... So mathematically in my case the helmet was TOTTALY USELESS 9 out of 10 times, I could write a paper saying that 90% of the time you crash the helmet is TOTTALY USELESS and be correct. But 1 time I lost one weeks worth of memory even tho I was wearing a helmet, so, was the helmet useless or not? Hard to prove what COULD have happened so my 9 out of t 10 stands and wearing a helmet is not needed... Isn't that how it works?
EDIT; Oh hell why not add a curve ball and actually come up with a hypotheses that the helmet actually may have increased the chance on my 1 week of memory loss happening, who can prove different?
I have probably crashed/fallen off the bike 10 times in my life, 9 of those times my head never touched the ground... So mathematically in my case the helmet was TOTTALY USELESS 9 out of 10 times, I could write a paper saying that 90% of the time you crash the helmet is TOTTALY USELESS and be correct. But 1 time I lost one weeks worth of memory even tho I was wearing a helmet, so, was the helmet useless or not? Hard to prove what COULD have happened so my 9 out of t 10 stands and wearing a helmet is not needed... Isn't that how it works?
EDIT; Oh hell why not add a curve ball and actually come up with a hypotheses that the helmet actually may have increased the chance on my 1 week of memory loss happening, who can prove different?