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The helmet thread

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The helmet thread

Old 11-07-12, 06:54 PM
  #4051  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
WOW, Are we ACTUALLY having a REAL discussion on this subject?
Ya think? Depends on how you want to define "a REAL discussion" or which posters are included in this "discussion group" you describe as "we."
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Old 11-07-12, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Ya think? Depends on how you want to define "a REAL discussion" or which posters are included in this "discussion group" you describe as "we."
We, the 3 people that posted the last 20 posts, Yea the hard core has "stayed" out of it so far, so I'm just waiting to get bent over from "something" that I said... I am surprised you haven't actually commented about some of the other things I have said...
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Old 11-07-12, 08:23 PM
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Never-mind, not as funny as I thought it was going to be...

Last edited by 350htrr; 11-07-12 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 11-07-12, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
Yes it is me and my opinion, but then so are studies, or they can be, sometimes they end up as someones opinion... Like who ever paid for it?
Ok, so you claim that some studies are biased because of funding. Not unreasonable.

Tell me, which studies, in your opinion, were biased because of the funding. Please, be specific. If you are going to libel the people who researched and wrote these studies, I certainly hope you have more to back you up than "my experience." Which is how you seem to explain everything else.

So, which studies are biased?
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Old 11-07-12, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by skye
So, which studies are biased?
Which aren't?
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Old 11-07-12, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by beezaur
Go look up the information in the links I provided. There are dozens and dozens of studies there.

To reiterate, here is the fact of the matter about helmet foam:

Some helmets use softer foam and do protect well against (relatively) minor injuries. Knock your head a little, and the material gives. Knock your head a lot and the material gives a lot - to the point that your head will hit the shell and come to a hard stop against whatever you are impacting.

That is broken skull time.

To prevent that, bicycle helmets in the US use a relatively stiff foam. So if you get into a hard impact, it doesn't bottom out and you save yourself from a broken skull. The down side is that foam that strong still applies a large load to your head.

So in US helmets you still get a concussion but save yourself from permanent, severe brain damage.

You can (and should) read about it here: https://www.helmets.org/liners.htm <- that's a link I already provided earlier which you obviously did not bother with.

Your misinformed insistence borders on unethical. People read things like your claims and get hurt as a result.

I'm getting sick of this site again . . . entirely too bad what could be good discussion is so degraded by activists.
I've already read those studies (in most cases, the actual studies, not the abstracts). Telling me to read them again is silly.

So, tell me, how does the foam stiffness -- which you clearly regard as the primary factor in how well a helmet protects you against injury -- influence neuronal shear stress, which is, as I'm sure you know, the major cause of traumatic brain injury? You seem to be *very* uninformed as to the causes of TBI.

So, try again, let's see if you can get things right this time.
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Old 11-07-12, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by skye
I've already read those studies (in most cases, the actual studies, not the abstracts). Telling me to read them again is silly.

So, tell me, how does the foam stiffness -- which you clearly regard as the primary factor in how well a helmet protects you against injury -- influence neuronal shear stress, which is, as I'm sure you know, the major cause of traumatic brain injury? You seem to be *very* uninformed as to the causes of TBI.

So, try again, let's see if you can get things right this time.
Do you know the answer, in which case, you are phrasing this question like a complete asshat, or are you asking because you don't know and want to expand your knowledge base, in which case you're phrasing the question like a complete asshat?
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Old 11-07-12, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_pedro
The graph below comes from this article on the site of the Dutch bicycle association: https://www.fietsersbond.nl/node/2070



I don't expect you to understand Dutch so let me translate: It plots for various countries the % of bikers wearing a helmet against the number of death cyclists per billion km. If anything, this should tell you that a helmet is by far not the first thing we should be worried about when it comes to bicycle safety.
Comparing what happens to the average dutch bicyclist has no real bearing to what happens to the average N. American bicyclist, it's like comparing accident rates while riding bicycles on a beach path versus riding bicycles downtown... Not really a fair comparison in my mind...
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Old 11-08-12, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
Comparing what happens to the average dutch bicyclist has no real bearing to what happens to the average N. American bicyclist, it's like comparing accident rates while riding bicycles on a beach path versus riding bicycles downtown... Not really a fair comparison in my mind...
Well that is the point, the conditions for cyclists are different in every country, apparently those conditions are far more important for safety than helmet usage.
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Old 11-08-12, 07:57 AM
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It is a real hoot and just plain stupid to say real world accidents are of less importance than "studies"!!!
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Old 11-08-12, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_pedro
Well that is the point, the conditions for cyclists are different in every country, apparently those conditions are far more important for safety than helmet usage.
Yep. Helmets are way down the list, regarding bike safety. Even the LAB acknowledges that.
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Old 11-08-12, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rydabent
It is a real hoot and just plain stupid to say real world accidents are of less importance than "studies"!!!
Real world accidents should certainly not be dismissed, but biased analysis of such by the uninformed, ignorant, and prejudiced should certainly be taken with not just a grain, but a truckload of salt.
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Old 11-08-12, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_pedro
Well that is the point, the conditions for cyclists are different in every country, apparently those conditions are far more important for safety than helmet usage.
OK, And it's true. How you ride, where you ride, you skill level, is way more important than a helmet for sure. The helmet is just the last line of defence in a crash, often not even needed, sometimes not enough, but most times it can help... IMO from my experience it's better to have and not need than not have and need, which I think has way more weight to me than any studies conclusion, especially one that says that a helmet causes more harm than good...

Last edited by 350htrr; 11-08-12 at 02:44 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-08-12, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_pedro
It plots for various countries the % of bikers wearing a helmet against the number of death cyclists per billion km. If anything, this should tell you that a helmet is by far not the first thing we should be worried about when it comes to bicycle safety.
You mean ... people wear helmets more often in places where cycling is more dangerous??

Shocking, simply shocking.
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Old 11-08-12, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by beezaur
Your misinformed insistence borders on unethical. People read things like your claims and get hurt as a result.

I'm getting sick of this site again . . . entirely too bad what could be good discussion is so degraded by activists.
+10

Dude, they've been at this way, way longer than you, and will be at it long after you have moved on to more usful pursuits.

Wear your new helmet in good health.
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Old 11-08-12, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mconlonx
Real world accidents should certainly not be dismissed, but biased analysis of such by the uninformed, ignorant, and prejudiced should certainly be taken with not just a grain, but a truckload of salt.
Precisely. How often is the assumption that "I wasn't injured because I was wearing a helmet" or "if I'd been wearing a helmet, I wouldn't have been injured". Sure, in some cases a helmet will provide a benefit, but people don't bother to actually figure out whether or not this was the case. They're happy enough to blindly assume that a helmet saved their life.
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Old 11-08-12, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Monster Pete
They're happy enough to blindly assume that a helmet saved their life.
I suppose I would rather blindly assume that a helmet saved my life than to have my widow wondering if a helmet might have saved my life.

I am not qualified to interpret anyone's data regarding the efficacy of wearing a helmet, so in the absence of such knowledge, I will happily err on the side of caution. Ultimately, however, our heads are our own, and only we can decide for ourselves what level of protection we desire, or if it is even beneficial at all.
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Old 11-08-12, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Monster Pete
Sure, in some cases a helmet will provide a benefit, but people don't bother to actually figure out whether or not this was the case.
Well, beezaur certainly made a decent case and look at the reception he got here...

Originally Posted by Monster Pete
They're happy enough to blindly assume that a helmet saved their life.
...and there are plenty in this thread who are happy enough to blindly assume that a helmet didn't save a life or provide exactly the protection that someone claims it did.
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Old 11-08-12, 06:01 PM
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People that play with numbers and percentages often seem to forget what they are betting, they aren't betting $1, $5, or even $100... on the roll of the dice. If you crash, it could be anything from nothing, a scrape, a bump on the head, a weeks worth of memory gone, a year of not being able to work, never being normal again, a paraplegic, or death... Not to say the helmet can save you from all these things but really, to say it doesn't help, well my simple little brain just can't wrap itself around that so called "fact" no matter how many smart people say it to me. The little self preservation voice in the back of my head keeps saying "don't believe it" So I choose not to... really, it's as simple as that.

EDIT; Having said that, I do believe that I have learned a few things that are better to do than just relying on a helmet...

1) Don't rely on the helmet, keep it as the last defence
2) Ride defensively
3) Ride where it's less chance of an unpleasant interaction with vehicles
4) Improving riding skill is more helpful
5) fallow smart riding practices like taking the lane when needed, things like that
6) I'm sure there's more things that would help more, but for now I'm just going to finish my beer...

Last edited by 350htrr; 11-08-12 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 11-08-12, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
People that play with numbers and percentages often seem to forget what they are betting, they aren't betting $1, $5, or even $100... on the roll of the dice. If you crash, it could be anything from nothing, a scrape, a bump on the head, a weeks worth of memory gone, a year of not being able to work, never being normal again, a paraplegic, or death... Not to say the helmet can save you from all these things but really, to say it doesn't help, well my simple little brain just can't wrap itself around that so called "fact" no matter how many smart people say it to me. The little self preservation voice in the back of my head keeps saying "don't believe it" So I choose not to... really, it's as simple as that.
None of what you said applies to bicycle riding uniquely. You could make the exact same argument for anything from walking, to driving. If head injury rates are any judge, you'd probably get more use out of a crash helmet in a car rather than on a bike (efficacy aside). Remember: you aren't betting a couple bucks; you're betting your life on the roll of the dice.
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Old 11-08-12, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sudo bike
None of what you said applies to bicycle riding uniquely. You could make the exact same argument for anything from walking, to driving. If head injury rates are any judge, you'd probably get more use out of a crash helmet in a car rather than on a bike (efficacy aside). Remember: you aren't betting a couple bucks; you're betting your life on the roll of the dice.
Yes, that's why we have airbags, anti-lock brakes, vehicle dynamic controls... And yes I do believe it would be safer in a car with a helmet, & 5 point seat belts, isn't that why race car-drivers use them? but so far "it" (my survival mechanism) hasn't suggested a helmet for normal driving, But, I must admit I have, worn a helmet in my car..., But they MADE me do it, Honest, otherwise I couldn't race...
It's strange, but my little voice that is concerned with my safety/survival mechanism, never said...

1; wear a helmet while walking, it just says, watch where you are going.
2; wear a helmet while showering, it just says, be careful, it slippery.
3; wear a helmet when going up ladders, it just says, 3 point contact at all times.
5; But it does, also say's stuff like, don't feed the bears, don't open the tigers cage, and definitely, don't go in there...

Last edited by 350htrr; 11-08-12 at 08:46 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-08-12, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rydabent
When "research" and "statistics" collide with real world happenings, they simply fail. Too many people, myself included have had real world accidents that were mitigated by a helmet to believe all the fog and fuss of the anti helmet cult.

Say tuned for more personal attacks on me.
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Old 11-09-12, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
Yes, that's why we have airbags, anti-lock brakes, vehicle dynamic controls... And yes I do believe it would be safer in a car with a helmet, & 5 point seat belts, isn't that why race car-drivers use them? but so far "it" (my survival mechanism) hasn't suggested a helmet for normal driving, But, I must admit I have, worn a helmet in my car..., But they MADE me do it, Honest, otherwise I couldn't race...
It's strange, but my little voice that is concerned with my safety/survival mechanism, never said...
So it comes down to your gut. Well, OK I guess, but that seems really arbitrary to me. My gut tells me hopping on a bicycle and heading down to the grocery store is remarkably safe. Children do it all the time. If you think bikes are dangerous enough for a survival instinct to take over, go for it, I guess.
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Old 11-09-12, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by sudo bike
So it comes down to your gut. Well, OK I guess, but that seems really arbitrary to me. My gut tells me hopping on a bicycle and heading down to the grocery store is remarkably safe. Children do it all the time. If you think bikes are dangerous enough for a survival instinct to take over, go for it, I guess.
Dude's crashed ten times... He probably ought to be wearing a helmet...
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Old 11-09-12, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rydabent
When "research" and "statistics" collide with real world happenings, they simply fail. Too many people, myself included have had real world accidents that we believe were mitigated by a helmet to believe all the fog and fuss of the anti helmet cult.
Fixed that for you.

Very few unhelmeted cyclists suffer serious head or brain injury. Yet almost everyone who posts in this thread in favour of helmets appears to have escaped death or serious brain injury because they were wearing a helmet. It must follow either that the helmeted experience massively higher accident rates than the unhelmeted (unlikely, imo) or that in most cases, helmets were irrelevant to the outcome and they would not have been seriously injured had they not been wearing them.

My own real-world experience suggests the latter. On two occasions in my very long cycling life I have crashed in such a way as to hit my head, once on the road and once putting a severe dent in the panel of a panel truck. On neither occasion was I wearing a helmet, on neither occasion was I seriously hurt.

If you have an accident in which you bump your helmeted head, it is natural to assume that the helmet has saved you. That may not be the case, however, and the statistics suggest that it usually isn't.
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