View Poll Results: Helmet wearing habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
178
10.66%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
94
5.63%
I've always worn a helmet
648
38.80%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
408
24.43%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
342
20.48%
Voters: 1670. You may not vote on this poll
The helmet thread
10-30-11, 12:37 AM
#401
Bicikli Huszár
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They're a business. I don't expect them to invest in things not related to their business any more than I would any other business. I'm interested in spreading information and dismissing misinformation, not criticizing a company for doing what is in it's best interest. As long as they aren't making false claims, they are acting exactly as they should. To expect otherwise is silly.
10-30-11, 06:28 AM
#402
Senior Member
They're a business. I don't expect them to invest in things not related to their business any more than I would any other business. I'm interested in spreading information and dismissing misinformation, not criticizing a company for doing what is in it's best interest. As long as they aren't making false claims, they are acting exactly as they should. To expect otherwise is silly.
10-30-11, 06:46 AM
#403
Bicikli Huszár
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Yeah, I don't really have a problem with that.
10-30-11, 08:37 AM
#404
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Got yourself painted into some sort of corner there, haven't you? 
10-30-11, 09:35 AM
#405
Senior Member
Companies like Bell directly benefit by misleading and false claims made by others at the expense of cycling safety
10-30-11, 10:33 AM
#406
Bicikli Huszár
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10-30-11, 10:33 AM
#407
Bicikli Huszár
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10-30-11, 10:41 AM
#408
Senior Member
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10-30-11, 11:38 AM
#410
Senior Member
and I don't have a problem with a company making a profit, but I do when some people claim they are not taking part in that profit.
Last edited by closetbiker; 10-30-11 at 11:49 AM.
10-30-11, 12:13 PM
#413
Senior Member
FYI, I just looked at our numbers. About 2% of store revenue from helmet sales. While technically there is some profit there, you'll have to explain to me and others how that 2% justifies any kind of slanted sales toward helmets. Hardly worth it. I'd rather sell someone something beneficial and at much more margin, like new cables and housing with installation fee on a bike that desperately needs it.
10-30-11, 12:24 PM
#414
Senior Member
FYI, I just looked at our numbers. About 2% of store revenue from helmet sales. While technically there is some profit there, you'll have to explain to me and others how that 2% justifies any kind of slanted sales toward helmets. Hardly worth it. I'd rather sell someone something beneficial and at much more margin, like new cables and housing with installation fee on a bike that desperately needs it.
I do know there are fewer than 100 people a year take this course in BC and I'm sure helmet sales far eclipse this.
It seems the consumer is making a choice about what they want to spend their safety dollars on
Last edited by closetbiker; 10-30-11 at 12:33 PM.
10-30-11, 12:37 PM
#415
Senior Member
just out of curiosity, do you have any idea of what the helmet to Can-Bike course sales ratio is?
I do know there are fewer than 100 people a year take this course in BC and I'm sure helmet sales far eclipse this.
It seems the consumer is making a choice about what they want to spend their safety dollars on
I do know there are fewer than 100 people a year take this course in BC and I'm sure helmet sales far eclipse this.
It seems the consumer is making a choice about what they want to spend their safety dollars on
^^^ Gets me thinkin'...
10-30-11, 01:07 PM
#416
Senior Member
12:1 Isn't that an indication of helmet promotion as a substitute for safety?
Offering free safety courses would be a more beneficial way to improve safety for your customers and keep 'em coming back
Offering free safety courses would be a more beneficial way to improve safety for your customers and keep 'em coming back
Last edited by closetbiker; 10-30-11 at 01:11 PM.
10-30-11, 01:12 PM
#417
Senior Member
Lots more margin on a safety course with basically no COGS...
Last edited by mconlonx; 10-30-11 at 02:13 PM.
10-30-11, 01:34 PM
#418
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AWWWW, come on - seriously, all I do is to point out that Sudo Bike on the face of it is expressing that double standards are all right. Not that I feel it's a big issue, just a light jab from my side, really.
And I must say that I totally fail to see any anti-helmet hyperbole in my post.
And I must say that I totally fail to see any anti-helmet hyperbole in my post.
10-30-11, 02:15 PM
#419
Senior Member
AWWWW, come on - seriously, all I do is to point out that Sudo Bike on the face of it is expressing that double standards are all right. Not that I feel it's a big issue, just a light jab from my side, really.
And I must say that I totally fail to see any anti-helmet hyperbole in my post.
And I must say that I totally fail to see any anti-helmet hyperbole in my post.
Seriously?
10-30-11, 02:22 PM
#421
Senior Member
If MHLs decrease ridership, why would helmet industry or their proxies lobby for such? Wouldn't that severely cut down on their market for bike helmets?
Or do we think they've done the analysis -- captive market forced to wear helmets = greater profit than free market with choice to wear helmets or not -- and come to the conclusion that they will sell more helmets if helmets are mandated?
Or do we think they've done the analysis -- captive market forced to wear helmets = greater profit than free market with choice to wear helmets or not -- and come to the conclusion that they will sell more helmets if helmets are mandated?
10-30-11, 02:27 PM
#422
Senior Member
Is this a basic human failure, one that can be demonstrated again and again, even outside the bike industry? Do we think that helmet companies are unjustly capitalizing on this tendency? It's been claimed that they foster such, but even if they didn't, wouldn't they still sell helmets based on peoples' usual habits and assumptions?
Meaning: do helmet companies even need to foster the perception that helmets save lives, or will people naturally assume such and take the easy route out -- helmet/pill vs. safety course/lifestyle change?
Is this the helmet companies' fault? As a business, do they owe it to their shareholders to talk people out of buying their product?
10-30-11, 02:30 PM
#423
Senior Member
As shown all over the world, when helmets are mandated, more helmets are bought. It doesn't matter to them that fewer people ride bikes, or what happens to the people riding those bikes, what they want are laws to ensure sales to sustain their profits
10-30-11, 02:33 PM
#424
Senior Member
Thread link summary:
A far more realistic site that addresses the helmet issue is the first one I provided on this new version of the thread,
https://bicyclesafe.com
If one is interested in studies and analysis, far more qualified anaylsis and opinions can be found at https://cyclehelmets.org/
------------------------------
a worthwhile read is the wiki entry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmet <-- Grand-daddy/mommy mother/fatherlode of helmet study linkage in the text and references at the bottom
I'm going to try to keep this updated and posted every five pages or so. Previous posts will not reflect current changes, but links will be updated to current page. Meaning, links here are copied from previous post on page 12 and include links up to page 17, but from here on out, post on page 12 will not reflect any links posted subsequent to this update. This post will be updated as more links are added, until it is copied.
Have you tried this? I know many will not regard it as neutral because it is very clear about the flaws in the pro-helmet position, but it does offer a fairly dispassionate analysis of the available evidence.
If you insist...
Head injuries and bicycle helmet laws
D. L. Robinson
AGBU, University of New England, Armidale, NSW 2351, Australia
Accepted 6 February 1996. ; Available online 26 February 1999.
Abstract
The first year of the mandatory bicycle helmet laws in Australia saw increased helmet wearing from 31% to 75% of cyclists in Victoria and from 31% of children and 26% of adults in New South Wales (NSW) to 76% and 85%. However, the two major surveys using matched before and after samples in Melbourne (Finch et al. 1993; Report No. 45, Monash Univ. Accident Research Centre) and throughout NSW (Smith and Milthorpe 1993; Roads and Traffic Authority) observed reductions in numbers of child cyclists 15 and 2.2 times greater than the increase in numbers of children wearing helmets. This suggests the greatest effect of the helmet law was not to encourage cyclists to wear helmets, but to discourage cycling.
Author Keywords: Bicycle; Head injury; Helmet; Legislation
D. L. Robinson
AGBU, University of New England, Armidale, NSW 2351, Australia
Accepted 6 February 1996. ; Available online 26 February 1999.
Abstract
The first year of the mandatory bicycle helmet laws in Australia saw increased helmet wearing from 31% to 75% of cyclists in Victoria and from 31% of children and 26% of adults in New South Wales (NSW) to 76% and 85%. However, the two major surveys using matched before and after samples in Melbourne (Finch et al. 1993; Report No. 45, Monash Univ. Accident Research Centre) and throughout NSW (Smith and Milthorpe 1993; Roads and Traffic Authority) observed reductions in numbers of child cyclists 15 and 2.2 times greater than the increase in numbers of children wearing helmets. This suggests the greatest effect of the helmet law was not to encourage cyclists to wear helmets, but to discourage cycling.
Author Keywords: Bicycle; Head injury; Helmet; Legislation
A far more realistic site that addresses the helmet issue is the first one I provided on this new version of the thread,
https://bicyclesafe.com
If one is interested in studies and analysis, far more qualified anaylsis and opinions can be found at https://cyclehelmets.org/
------------------------------
a worthwhile read is the wiki entry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmet <-- Grand-daddy/mommy mother/fatherlode of helmet study linkage in the text and references at the bottom
...I would suggest going to this site, which provides objectively collected data, some pro-helmet interpretations and links to sites which counter their views:
https://www.bhsi.org
For researched rational responses to many of the negatives about helmets I would suggest this site:
https://www.bhsi.org/negativs.htm
https://www.bhsi.org
For researched rational responses to many of the negatives about helmets I would suggest this site:
https://www.bhsi.org/negativs.htm
It's not common to receive head injuries on bikes any more than it is to receive them off a bike, which is, not not common.
Here's another link....
Here's another link....
[helmets/helmet advocates] promote injury.
If the scalp helps reduce rotational injury to the brain by helping the head slide along pavement rather than catch, and a helmet reduced this effect, doesn't it stand to reason that at least in these sorts of accidents a helmet mitigates the effect of the scalp?
Again, why do you think they are now trying to replicate this "scalp effect" in new helmets? What would be the purpose if it were not effective?
"It has been suggested that the major causes of permanent intellectual disablement and death after head injury may be torsional forces leading to diffuse axonal injury (DAI), a form of injury which usual helmets cannot mitigate and may make worse.[68]"
"A bicycle helmet with its own synthetic "scalp" has been designed with the aim of mitigating rotational injury.[71]"
Again, why do you think they are now trying to replicate this "scalp effect" in new helmets? What would be the purpose if it were not effective?
"It has been suggested that the major causes of permanent intellectual disablement and death after head injury may be torsional forces leading to diffuse axonal injury (DAI), a form of injury which usual helmets cannot mitigate and may make worse.[68]"
"A bicycle helmet with its own synthetic "scalp" has been designed with the aim of mitigating rotational injury.[71]"
...read the links I provided: Focusing on helmets distracts people from what's more likely to actually save their lives: Learning how to ride safely. It's not that I'm against helmets, I'm against all the attention placed on helmets at the expense of safe riding skills.
Here's another link for you to read and consider...
one of the most powerful laws in the universe is the law of unintended consequences
Here's another link for you to read and consider...
one of the most powerful laws in the universe is the law of unintended consequences
...an Australian judge sided against a helmet law and with a cyclist who argued wearing a helmet caused more harm than it prevented
''Having read all the material, I think I would fall down on your side of the ledger,'' the judge told Ms Abbott after she had spelt out her case against the laws that exist in few countries other than Australia and New Zealand.
''I frankly don't think there is anything advantageous and there may well be a disadvantage in situations to have a helmet - and it seems to me that it's one of those areas where it ought to be a matter of choice.''
He found Ms Abbott had ''an honestly held and not unreasonable belief as to the danger associated with the use of a helmet by cyclists'', and quashed her conviction...
''Having read all the material, I think I would fall down on your side of the ledger,'' the judge told Ms Abbott after she had spelt out her case against the laws that exist in few countries other than Australia and New Zealand.
''I frankly don't think there is anything advantageous and there may well be a disadvantage in situations to have a helmet - and it seems to me that it's one of those areas where it ought to be a matter of choice.''
He found Ms Abbott had ''an honestly held and not unreasonable belief as to the danger associated with the use of a helmet by cyclists'', and quashed her conviction...
don't forget the paper the Australian judge read prior to rendering a decision:
The testing and design of standard helmets continue to reflect the discredited theory that linear acceleration is the dominant cause of brain injury and to neglect rotation.
and another study examining a vital lack of coverage by the bicycle helmet
The common designs of commercially available bicycle helmets do not prevent direct contact loading on the temporal and zygomatic arch region and this contact loading is potentially harmful.
has been shown in court to be common knowledge in the helmet industry
It has been known for years by the helmet industry that the majority of head impacts occur below the "test line," and that the majority of injurious impacts are concentrated in the front or temporal region.
but this issue of protection (or lack thereof) may be completely moot because
1) On a per-mile basis, the odds of being killed or sustaining a serious head injury while riding a bicycle are about the same as the odds of being killed or injured while out for a walk.
2) On a per-capita basis, the odds of being killed while riding a bicycle are nearly the same as the odds of being killed by a bolt of lightning (this author has, in fact, been struck by lightning -- albeit indirectly -- so he is well aware that "extremely improbable" is not quite the same as "impossible"); the odds of sustaining a serious head injury while riding a bicycle are about half the odds of sustaining a serious injury while out for a walk.
The testing and design of standard helmets continue to reflect the discredited theory that linear acceleration is the dominant cause of brain injury and to neglect rotation.
and another study examining a vital lack of coverage by the bicycle helmet
The common designs of commercially available bicycle helmets do not prevent direct contact loading on the temporal and zygomatic arch region and this contact loading is potentially harmful.
has been shown in court to be common knowledge in the helmet industry
It has been known for years by the helmet industry that the majority of head impacts occur below the "test line," and that the majority of injurious impacts are concentrated in the front or temporal region.
but this issue of protection (or lack thereof) may be completely moot because
1) On a per-mile basis, the odds of being killed or sustaining a serious head injury while riding a bicycle are about the same as the odds of being killed or injured while out for a walk.
2) On a per-capita basis, the odds of being killed while riding a bicycle are nearly the same as the odds of being killed by a bolt of lightning (this author has, in fact, been struck by lightning -- albeit indirectly -- so he is well aware that "extremely improbable" is not quite the same as "impossible"); the odds of sustaining a serious head injury while riding a bicycle are about half the odds of sustaining a serious injury while out for a walk.
if you continue to be worried about hurting your head from falling over, you may want to wear your helmet while walking as well because,
The tests that cycle helmets currently go through mean that they should offer similar protection to a pedestrian who trips and falls to the ground.
The tests that cycle helmets currently go through mean that they should offer similar protection to a pedestrian who trips and falls to the ground.
If protection from being hit by a car is your concern, a helmet might be a good choice if it was designed to provide such protection, but it is not.
"bicycle helmets are not designed to withstand the impact of collisions with motor vehicles"
"The tests cycle helmets currently go through mean that they should offer similar protection to a pedestrian who trips and falls to the ground... helmets protect in falls without any involvement with motor vehicles...in todays road traffic accidents, it's not unlikely for a cycle helmet to be subjected to severity loads far greater than it was designed to cope with"
"bicycle helmets are not designed to withstand the impact of collisions with motor vehicles"
"The tests cycle helmets currently go through mean that they should offer similar protection to a pedestrian who trips and falls to the ground... helmets protect in falls without any involvement with motor vehicles...in todays road traffic accidents, it's not unlikely for a cycle helmet to be subjected to severity loads far greater than it was designed to cope with"
[regarding motor-vehicle/bicycle collisions as it pertains to the utility of helmets in such]
"The tests cycle helmets currently go through mean that they should offer similar protection to a pedestrian who trips and falls to the ground... helmets protect in falls without any involvement with motor vehicles...in todays road traffic accidents, it's not unlikely for a cycle helmet to be subjected to severity loads far greater than it was designed to cope with"
"The tests cycle helmets currently go through mean that they should offer similar protection to a pedestrian who trips and falls to the ground... helmets protect in falls without any involvement with motor vehicles...in todays road traffic accidents, it's not unlikely for a cycle helmet to be subjected to severity loads far greater than it was designed to cope with"
a bicycle helmet is not designed for impacts with other vehicles.
Impacts with other vehicles introduces additional forces that were not designed for... here's a third source that explains a bit more "when a cyclist is knocked off by another vehicle, this frequently results in the head being spun and subjected to torsional effects. One consequence of this is that they tend not to hit the ground as cleanly as children who are typically involved in low-impact, non-twisting injuries,"
Impacts with other vehicles introduces additional forces that were not designed for... here's a third source that explains a bit more "when a cyclist is knocked off by another vehicle, this frequently results in the head being spun and subjected to torsional effects. One consequence of this is that they tend not to hit the ground as cleanly as children who are typically involved in low-impact, non-twisting injuries,"
according to the Canada Safety Council, it is more important to wear a helmet than text while cycling
Paying attention to riding and avoiding distractions from cellphones and music players ranks second on the Canada Safety Council's top tips for improving cycling safety — behind wearing a helmet
And people question helmet skeptics when they say helmet promotion reduces cycling safety?
Paying attention to riding and avoiding distractions from cellphones and music players ranks second on the Canada Safety Council's top tips for improving cycling safety — behind wearing a helmet
And people question helmet skeptics when they say helmet promotion reduces cycling safety?
[examples of pro-helmet groups citing discredited studies, which groups also push for MHL legislation, and which are supported by helmet manufacturers]
https://www.helmetssavelives.org/
The single most effective safety device available to reduce head injury and death from bicycle crashes is a helmet.
Bike Helmet: Difference of Life or Death
Paying attention to riding and avoiding distractions from cellphones and music players ranks second on the Canada Safety Council's top tips for improving cycling safety — behind wearing a helmet.
https://www.helmetssavelives.org/
The single most effective safety device available to reduce head injury and death from bicycle crashes is a helmet.
Bike Helmet: Difference of Life or Death
Paying attention to riding and avoiding distractions from cellphones and music players ranks second on the Canada Safety Council's top tips for improving cycling safety — behind wearing a helmet.
10-30-11, 02:34 PM
#425
Senior Member
I think you've answered your own question there
As shown all over the world, when helmets are mandated, more helmets are bought. It doesn't matter to them that fewer people ride bikes, or what happens to the people riding those bikes, what they want are laws to ensure sales to sustain their profits
As shown all over the world, when helmets are mandated, more helmets are bought. It doesn't matter to them that fewer people ride bikes, or what happens to the people riding those bikes, what they want are laws to ensure sales to sustain their profits