unterhausen

It used to really frustrate me that this forum was actually a detriment to cycling. Between the anti-cyclist cyclists and the purity trolls and all the other people that just like to come in and argue, I finally got over that. Would be nice to have a cycling advocacy forum

VTBike

This is certainly well intended. You have a very good point about the error of making sweeping judgments about a class of people. So if you are intellectually honest, you would refrain from making sweeping judgments about bicyclists NOT breaking the law. I'll let you in on a little secret: Some bicyclists break the law. My Commandments never passed judgment as to how many. So for you to imply that it did is not an implication based on reason and is an attempt to insert an argument for no other purpose than to be argumentative.

mikeybikes

No true advocacy ever happens in the Advocacy & Safety forum. I accepted this long ago.

spivonious

Thanks for the chuckle this morning, VTBike.

kickstart

But.........and this is what really matters........the original reflects whats actually under our control as cyclists.

Anyone who believes they are above self scrutiny and criticism, or excuse their wrong doings as being the lesser evil is bound to become nothing more than just another bad road user.

Making using the road a safer, more productive, and enjoyable place starts with me.

VTBike

I'm starting to think that many so-called "advocates" live in homes with no mirrors.

mconlonx

Two rules for Advocacy & Safety Club:

1) You are more correct than other advocates. Be smug.
2) Refer to rule no. 1.

Fahrenheit531 

Including motorists. I drove a car for a looooong time before I ever got myself a bike, and contrary to perceptions around here, "most motorists" are not scofflaws that lob live grenades at cyclists as they pass.


[[edit]] Before I get blasted, I'm not denying a large degree of indifference regarding the plight of cyclists. (Shrug. "If it's so bad, just get a car," they say.) But the constant broad-brush painting of the "typical motorist" as operating in a manner reminiscent of the driving scene from Reefer Madness is very tiresome.

VTBike

Good point. It is not effective to insist that all motor vehicle operators are ignorant and/or evil. The responsible motorists could prove to be key allies. Making them an enemy right out of the gate is advoacy at its worst.

Cyclosaurus

OK, now you're just making things up. I never, ever said that cyclists don't break the law. Many do. Rolling through stop signs and going through red lights is common enough. This is virtually irrelevant to a productive discussion about making roads safer. It's not like motorists are real sticklers for obeying the laws. The vast majority exceed speed limits, roll through stop signs, run red lights, etc., and do so without remorse or any pangs of conscience. Which, honestly, doesn't trouble me. So let's just be honest here and admit that very very few people really, truly care about 100% adhering to the law. Yet it's virtually guaranteed that the "cyclists are scofflaws" line will be trotted out anytime cyclist safety is brought up. Why? It isn't that these people are actually so dedicated to abiding law that they follow it themselves to the degree that they demand cyclists do. And they don't seem to mind their fellow motorists being scofflaws either. What makes someone who is perfectly happy with casual lawbreaking by themselves and others all around them suddenly clutch their pearls in outrage about cyclists violating the precious traffic code? The answer is that it's a defense mechanism, a way to distract from the real underlying causes of risk, and to create false equivalency in the name of "balance". All it really does is give drivers an easy way to escape any accountability because they walk away saying, "you do your part" and clear their conscience of any actual responsibility.

VTBike

You are correct, and it was unfair for me to imply that you did.


This is really what I took issue with. Adherence to laws that are designed to increase safety is definitely relevant to a discussion about making roads safer. Using your logic, motorists are completely entitled to say: "Bicyclists break safety laws, so therefore we are entitled to break these laws too and it is irrelevant to safety to even discuss this." I simply do not agree with your viewpoint.

In any event, we are the group that needs acceptance. Insisting that we will refuse to self-reflect when it comes to unsafe behavior is never going to be effective advocacy. Ever.

RoadTire 

fify

Keith99

Did I miss the part in the commandments that Police are especially hostile to cyclists?

Or is that covered in the hymnal?

VTBike

Police are included in Commandment #2 .

herzogone

I chuckled at VTBike's commandments, and even more at the irony of Cyclosaurus' response, but these principles can all be distilled to a single, profound truth (related to what was already stated by howsteepisit):

1. Some people are a**holes, at least some of the time.

This applies across all modes of transport and communication (probably even to this post itself) If only Wheaton's Law were applied more often in all aspects of life...

3alarmer 

Equinox

Perfect. Self-loathing cyclists are tiresome.

Fahrenheit531 

Wow. The vast majority blow through red lights? Speed limits, many do, but not by a lot. Stop signs, sometimes, and somewhat more or less depending on the location, time of day, and familiarity with typical traffic at that intersection. And who knows what your "etc." includes. Wrong way down a one-way blindfolded, maybe. But c'mon. If your statement were really true all the motorists would already have killed each other.

Cyclosaurus

I'm not saying that everyone is just running red lights all the time. But I maintain that most drivers do run red lights on occasion, whether from inattention, just tyring to squeeze through a yellow, or what have you.

VTBike

Sounds quite similar to bicyclist behavior.

B. Carfree

Consider the vast space available on American roads and then consider that over two MILLION Americans are injured by motorists every year. I think the characterization of many motorists as somewhat negligent in their operation of their cars is spot on.

Fahrenheit531 

There is a world of difference between "many" and "the vast majority." Advocacy through hyperbole is self-defeating, as the listener is encouraged to tune out when the reasons presented for change are so obviously false.

"The vast majority of dogs are just looking for a chance to maul a child, so we must ...."
"Um, no they're not."
"Well, you know, a lot of them are."
"Really? So that vast majority thing, what was that about?"

And the argument has already moved from solutions to the problem to the credibility of the person presenting it or, even worse, to whether or not there even is a problem. Hell, I'm on the side that says yes, there needs to be more/better infrastructure in place and yes, there are many other issues that need to be addressed. But it's really tough to stand beside people who actively demonize just about everybody on the road who isn't them. I honestly believe that until the hysterics and holier-than-thous stop, very little will be accomplished. And if advocacy outside these forums looks anything like advocacy within them, well, I'd suggest we prepare ourselves for a long wait.

-=(8)=-

Yep. spot on. You got it

howsteepisit

Nicely said!

kickstart

Statistics show that Americas consume resources, and that 100% will die in their lifetime, ergo, we would be much better off if we emulated the Dutch as its been shown they consume resources, and that 100% will die in their lifetime.....but they do it on a bicycle so that makes them mo-betta.