dynodonn 

In your locale, your traffic law enforcement officers appear to be more lenient towards cyclists running red lights than traffic LEOs in my area. I assure you that if your same tactic was performed in the same manner in my area, it will garner you at least a stop if done in full view of any of our traffic LEOs.

mr_bill

Here's a snippet from my ride today. I'm such a scofflaw. I blew the LIGNE D’ARRĘT. Wonder why?


-mr. bill

risant

This is why when I do stop at a red I always look before starting out on the green. Usually only fully stop when there is a lot of traffic around, which is not very often in the hours I ride, and I have been hit before pulling out at a green. Luckily I learned that lesson in a 1982 Dodge ram van wagon (the kind that usually has 4 back seats) even at that I got spun pretty hard.

mr_bill

Si imprévisible!
Any questions?

I'm sure that this will get mass quantities of criticism - at least here.


-mr. bill

dru_

For what it's worth, In Milton ( 8 miles north of Roswell ), it's $200 for running either a Stop or a Red, including a 'rolling' stop.

Now that said, I fall into a middle camp. Full stop at every sign and light can be tricky, particularly for newer riders that are still struggling a bit with balance issues, so while I think the scofflaw approach is disrespectful and selfish, I have absolutely no problem with what I call a conditional rolling stop.

Approach an intersection slowly, deliberately and fully prepared to stop, while observing any potential cross traffic risks. About half the time, drivers at the intersections will wave the cyclist through, or there will be no traffic and it is safe to proceed, again, calmly and deliberately.

Now that said, I personally have gone to a stop at every intersection/light policy, and I do take the lane if there is no shoulder or bike lane. I will quite happily sit there with traffic, and accelerate with the cars slipping to the side on the other side of the intersection. If it is a 'clear' intersection, I will come to a full stop, for about 1 second, without clipping out before accelerating through an intersection. That particular method has indeed landed me on the side of the road having a pleasant discussion with a Milton Vehicluar Tax Collector & Revenue Generation Officer.

On a side note, when an officer pulls you over and asks you if you know why you were pulled over, the response "you thought I looked dead sexy in my spandex" is not a great conversation starter, especially when the officer is male, and you are a 200 lb male as well.

Anyways, his contention was that I had not come to a complete stop because I did not put a foot down. My contention was that according to federal definitions (GA does not actually codify a definition of a complete stop that I can find), my wheels did in fact come to a complete stop, and that my speedometer did show a 0. He issued the citation. We went to court. I demanded his dashboard video as evidence. Upon review, the citation was dropped, as video showed that I did stop, however briefly. The judge did gently suggest that I put my foot down, but there is no legal requirement to do so.

My point is this. The letter of the law is subject to interpretation and enforcement by officers and judges. We have the option to practice civil disobedience, but have to understand that it comes with a risk.If we want change, that civil disobedience is pretty much worthless without an organized message and in channel advocacy for changes.

Riding like a scofflaw, and posting to a bike forum about doing so is worthless, pointless, and childish. Working with your local bicycle coalition (or starting one if you don't have one), working with your local media and organizing safe demonstrations of why change is needed would actually have a point. Everything else is just another rider being a selfish and disrespectful person presenting a bad image to drivers that will only recall the negatives when they see other riders.

spare_wheel

Not from me. If I am holding up traffic I will almost always attempt to let traffic pass (when it is safe to do so). Moreover, I consider freight to have about the same priority on our roads as active/public transport. I'm far more likely to go out of my way to let freight pass than the proverbial tailgating/honking sociopath in a 12,000 lb SUV.

Pedestrians >>> Active transport/Public Transport > Freight >>>> Low occupancy vehicles.

spare_wheel

I am a local advocate and I spend a significant amount of time meeting with local government and planning local actions/demonstrations. I typically advocate for traffic calming and enhanced/protected bike facilities. Nevertheless, I am also a vehement advocate for an idaho stop law, repeal of FRAP, repeal of the mandatory side path law, and strict liability. When I ride like a scofflaw I am often making a political statement. The amusing thing is that many fraidy-cat safety nannies view much of my legal cycling behavior as illegal scofflaw behavior because they suffer from car head and/or project their own insecurities on my bike behavior.

wphamilton

My strong opinion there was related to motorists at traffic lights- I didn't intend to advocate stiffer penalties and enforcement for bicycles at stop signs. I was unclear there.

I don't really have an issue with rolling stops, either bike or automobile. Even making a point of stopping deliberately at every stop sign, I still find myself sometimes rolling past a stop sign. It happens, and no harm no foul in my opinion. But with drivers at red lights the situation is out of control here in Alpharetta and Roswell.

I'm kind of ambivalent about the whole concept of scofflaw cyclists giving us all a bad name. Maybe they do, or maybe that's just what some people fasten onto to justify griping about cyclists. Either way, I'm leaning toward the attitude of not worrying about it.

Paul Barnard

If it's worthless then why are you responding?

Paul Barnard

What kind of traffic calming measures do you advocate for?

dru_

Around Atlanta, I honestly think the griping is mostly people who are just pissed off about being stuck in their cars in traffic, and they get angry about anything that passes them while they aren't moving as fast as they want to be. It's the same reason they will drive past 10 cars half on the road half off the road down the right side to make a right turn and red and think nothing of it, while flying into a rage when someone else does it, 4 wheels, 2 wheels, pedal or motor, doesn't matter. All the get off the road crap stems from the fact that a bicycle might slow them down, or did, that one time.

My three modes of transportation are in order bicycle, motorcycle, smart car, and you know what? I hear the same crap from other drivers regardless. Sometimes I think that, around here, if it isn't a Ford F-150 or bigger, it "don't belong". I just ignore it, or wave and smile all friendly like. It's not like any of them actually have the guts to stop and have conversation about it.

Advocating it with the local municipalities is the only way to promote change. Working with them on enforcement, working with them on education works.

All of that said, I don't generally worry about it myself. I've been on these roads for 25 years now. They are no more dangerous than they were, and arguably are less dangerous. Distracted driving? before cell phones it was newspapers, makeup and electric shavers. Distracted driving? car stereos pushing 120db's. 25 years ago it was glass drink bottles launched out car windows, rednecks with guns in the back windows. It was bench seats with the girlfriend borderline in the drivers lap doing god knows what.

You ride long enough, you'll see things that will truly make you marvel, and not all of it in a good way .

Worst one ever for me was about 20 years ago, on West Wylie Bridge Road (off Hwy 92 between Roswell and Woodstock), watched a lady drive her hatchback right off the edge of the road and into a ditch. Raced down the ditch to make sure she was ok. Her infant child was at least in a car seat, but the driver reeked of hard liquor, had no pants on, and there was a buzzing adult toy rattling around the floorboards. Now THAT was distracted driving.

dru_

Boredom while waiting on a large code compile to be totally honest :-)

Doohickie

I really don't have a problem with the methods of riding of any people in this thread. Stopping all the time is great. Blowing through stop signs is fine. As long as you are actively making your choices, have fun. Choosing to run through a red light isn't being a scofflaw to me, provided you've evaluated the situation and you're not being a pain in the ass to others, or creating an unsafe situation.

What irks me are the people, on bikes, in cars or even on foot, who just dawdle along oblivious to their surroundings. Those are the people that cause the worst accidents, through simple inattention.

spare_wheel

Diverters on bike boulevards. Speed bumps where appropriate on bike boulevards and local streets.

JameB

If you don't want to follow the law, that's up to you. But if someone else doesn't follow the law and you get injured, don't complain.

Stop signs slow cars down too. If cars can get to their destination faster, they too will be safer.

JoeyBike

If?....IF???!!....Really?

You made me laugh. Thanks!

JameB

What? I don't get it...

Doohickie

If someone doesn't follow the law... Joeybike is saying there is no IF about it; it's a given.

JoeyBike

Let me 'splain...

That quote made me laugh because of the "IF" and if motorists breaking the law almost never happens. Or pedestrians J-walking almost never happens. So IF happens a thousand times a second every freaking day, almost everyone breaks the law ON PURPOSE in traffic sooner or later.

In other words...

kickstart

There's also the "if' we want to pretend all violations are equal.

Not doing a textbook stop for a right on red, is not the same as running through an intersection against the signal, exceeding the posted speed limit isn't the same as too fast for conditions or ability.

Some people assuage their conscience by excusing mountains with molehills.

JameB

Ah..

Funny!

If you don't want to follow the law, that's up to you. But when someone else doesn't follow the law and you get injured, don't complain.

Jseis 

My take is a moderator should step in and move this thread to someplace it really belongs..... like Politics and Religion.

kickstart

Where and how often do you encounter these people? The only time I'm aware of what others are thinking about me is those rare occasions someone honks or yells.
Do you think its possible you to may be projecting your hostility towards motorists by your actions, and are simply getting the reaction you desire?

JoeyBike

If I followed the law my risk goes sky high. I don't want to get hit or injured. Therefore I assume the other guy is going to break the law and I act accordingly doing whatever it takes to avoid the other guys mistake. My actions may or may not be legal. But my style of riding, in my city, drastically reduces the chances of getting wholloped and feeling the need to complain.

So when someone else doesn't follow the law and I DON'T get injured because I broke the law, I promise I won't complain.

spare_wheel

In portland there are an awful lot of cyclists who believe it is their duty to call out other cyclists. I've had numerous conversations in person and online with people who are obviously angry about my "dangerous" cycling. I've even been physically assaulted by another cyclist when they became enraged that I did not use the bike lane. In another recent instance a cyclist started screaming at me to use the bike lane and then cut across three lanes of traffic and came within a foot of colliding with me. (I was in the far left lane setting up a left turn.) I experience far more road rage from cyclists than from motorists.

PS: When I cycle with others I almost always happily use bike facilities. I'm no VCer.