JoeyBike

News Flash: Crossing on a GREEN light with your head up your bum is not all that safe either. Another shining example of why I am not fixated on the pretty lights but on the things out there that will actually hurt me. Using my system of cycling, I would have been watching the traffic and unaware that I even had a green light. The SUV would have passed under the red with no skin of my back because THAT is what I am looking for before entering any intersection. Light color is totally irrelevant to my safety on a bicycle. Or in a car for that matter. Just ask the minivan driver.


Exactly! Thank you.

Digital_Cowboy

Joey,

The ONLY time I have been hit at an intersection is when I was at a four-way intersection and I was hit HEADON by a motorist who was making an illegal left hand turn. And surely for all of your paranoia, you must know that rear-end crashes are really quite rare.

It translates to being safe in my language, because I know how to handle myself in traffic, and I act in a predictable manner, i.e. I signal when I am changing lanes, as well as when I am slowing down to stop and when I am making a turn.

There are a number of WIDE multi-laned roads that I regularly travel that have “high speeds.” When I am on them I can be found in the left hand turn lane when I am getting ready to make a left hand turn. One such road the left hand turn lane starts a considerable distance from the intersection. I stick out my left arm and have not failed to be given room to move over and into the left hand turn lane. And get this NO ONE has yelled at me to get off of the road when I do so. Nor has anyone come close to hitting me.

So please how does that fit in with your saying that getting hit from behind is your main concern? Yes, sadly too many motorists are driving while distracted, or stoned, or high, or drunk. But except for the psychopaths NO ONE wants to hit or hurt anyone. They just want to get from Point A to Point B without trouble, and hitting another road user just ads to their trouble. So please explain how so many other cyclists are able to safely navigate intersections without running either red lights or stop signs?

wphamilton

Ever almost get into a fight with cyclists blocking a red light? to maybe tie into the thread topic ...

Lone

don't be that guy.

Jaywalk3r

By not being in the intersection, you could have avoided that collision.

In cars, I have experienced and witnessed severalsuch accidents, often involving 3-5 cars, totaling some of them. (So having a car stopped behind me isn't much protection from such collisions when I'm stopped at an intersection.) I would not be surprised to find they are a very common collision type, relative to others.

kickstart

Well I expected that to be your take on it.....because its not all about you. Do you ever get tired of patting yourself on the back for your proclaimed superiority?

This is getting insane, just declare your opinions to be irrefutable facts and anything contrary from an individual or society is unworthy of consideration or possibility of having merit.

Digital_Cowboy

Sadly, that was NOT an option. To my left was a van going straight through the intersection, to my right was the BMW that had hit me headon. Had I taken you’re all’s advice and “ran” the stop sign I would have either been hit by the van or been hit by the BMW while moving.

Now I don’t know about you but I would rather take my chances of getting hit headon while I am stopped then while I am moving. And yes, I walked away without a scratch. Sadly I can’t say the same about my bike, but fortunately the only thing that happened to it is that my front wheel was destroyed.

Jaywalk3r

If you believe that, then you haven't understood anything I've written.

0 mph is the most dangerous speed on a bicycle.

mikeybikes

Uh oh, I better go tell my bicycle to get moving.

Jaywalk3r

I think if you're not on your bicycle, it'll be fine!

J.C. Koto

This thread has become the theatre of the absurd. Brilliant! Kudos, all. You've taken it to a whole new level, even for A&S.

Whoever said this is better than Netflix was right! I nominate this thread for the much-vaunted "sticky" status.

JoeyBike

It has been fun. I feel like I my Internet connection was worth what it cost this week. Better than Netflix and I get to keep in practice typing.

It's gonna be a sad day when they lock it for sure.

Digital_Cowboy

No, I know the intersection in question. I’m pretty sure that I’ve already posted about this encounter, and I’m guessing that you missed it, but here it is again. There was a van to my left going straight through the intersection, then me, and to my right was the BMW that hit me. The BMW was being driven by your typical “self-importaint and entitled” driver. He made an illegal left hand turn in front of the van turning into my lane.

So as I said IF I had followed your all’s advice and ran the stop sign I would have either been hit by the van, or by the BMW while I was also moving. Now then I’m just gusessing, but I’d say that he was probably going about 15 - 20MPH, I would have also been doing around that speed.

Which means according to the laws of physics that we would have met with the force of my running into a brick wall at 30 - 40MPH. To me it was much better to only deal with 15 - 20MPH worth of force rather then 30 - 40MPH worth of force.

And considering that as I’ve already said that I had walked away without a scratch, I know that had I been moving when the BMW hit me that the end results would have been MUCH worse.

So please tell me with a van moving left-to-right through the intersection, and the BMW making an illegal left hand turn. How would it have been “safer” for me to run the stop sign? Answer, is that I was safer right where I was.

Hmm, again, considering that I walked away WITHOUT a scratch and I was SITTING STILL, how do you explain that? I’ll tell you, because I only had to deal with the cars inertia, NOT our combined inertia.

Or do you think that had I been moving that that would have somehow imbued me with some sort of “special” power to avoid injury or injuries? Injury or injuries that I AVOIDED because I was SITTING STILL, yes, as I said my front wheel was FUBARED, but I ESCAPED injury, or did you MISS that point? Did you also miss that there was a van to my left traveling through the intersection, and that the BMW made an illegal turn?

Again Jaywalk3r, based on my personal experience I will NOT be running either red lights or stop signs. If you and Joey want to that is fine, but PLEASE stop rationalizing it by saying that it is somehow “safer,” or “considerate” of other road users.

The roads are ONLY safe when ALL road users act in a PERDICTABLE manner. By running both red lights and stop signs all you are saying is that the laws of the road do NOT apply to you. And you ARE endangering others, because they have NO idea what you are going to do or when.

Jaywalk3r

0 mph is the speed at which bicyclists are most vulnerable. They can't maneuver the bike, and they can't maneuver their bodies as pedestrians (because they are effectively straddling a fence). When piloting a bike, speed is your friend.

No rationalization required. It's a simple fact. I'll extend to you the same challenge that kickstart backed down from:

Provide a single realistic scenario in which Idaho stopping increases danger or inconvenience for me or any other road users with whom I'm sharing the roads, compared to obeying traffic laws at every intersection. (No, "it makes all cyclists look bad" is not a legitimate response.)

Support your assertion if you're so confident in your position. I've already provided, upthread, examples of where Idaho stopping can increase my safety and increase the convenience for other road users.

I pilot my bike quite predictably. I always yield to other road users when I'm supposed to. Nothing beyond that matters to anyone else but me, except in cases where I am through the intersection sooner than I would be if I mindlessly obeyed traffic laws, and there are road users in line behind me, waiting for the right of way. In such cases, they get through the intersection faster, too. My behavior endangers no one, including myself.

Digital_Cowboy

Then how the bloody hell do you explain that I was NOT injured in the slightest?: I didn’t even fall over, if according to you “0MPH” is the most dangerous speed for a cyclist, then shouldn’t I have been injured when I was hit headon?!? Why wasn’t I, huh. Its because I was standing still and only had to deal with the cars inretia.

So PLEASE explain to me that if according to you that “0MPH is the most dangerous speed” for a cyclist how it is that I escaped without injury.

I just did, if I had operated in the way that both you and Joey advocate I would have either been hit by the van going straight through the intersection, or by the BMW that hit me anyway, or even possibly by both the van AND the BMW, as it had turned short in front of the van.

In your mind, maybe, but I am sure that to the other road users you look like just another cyclist who cannot obey the law.

Jaywalk3r

Clearly, you don't understand why 0 mph is the most dangerous speed at which you can be on a bike in the street.

Just because you survived when not moving doesn't mean that 0 mph is not the most dangerous speed at which you can be on a bike in the street. Do try to apply some basic logic, will you?

Incorrect. You said the way was not clear to go. So it is not a scenario in which I have advocated proceeding through the intersection. If you stopped for a moment to consider how Idaho stops work, instead of assuming that they are bad simply because they do not conform to local traffic laws, you would understand that. In other words …

The challenge remains unmet.

Perhaps to those incapable of critical thought, but I don't concern myself with such people. It won't matter how I pilot my bike; they won't be satisfied.

Rollfast

Or we could just all sit down and quaff a root beer...

You got kids there after all.

02Giant 

I believe a visit with a mental health professional would be advantageous to a few here.

JoeyBike

You can not think in "absolutes" when cycling. Use common sense (which is not so common around here sometimes). No one here is telling you to blindly run red lights and stop signs without any thought. No one has given you some "formula" to be followed like a chemistry project. In the scenario you mentioned upthread, likely the safest thing to do was to stop and wait. You actually followed my advice - LOOK both ways before crossing the street and go IF IT IS SAFE. You did exactly that. It was not safe to go, so you stayed put. See how easy that is?

What some of us are preaching is that IF THE COAST IS CLEAR, it is safer in many ways (already discussed ad nauseam) to get a jump on motor traffic waiting at the light. In general, 0-MPH is a dangerous speed in traffic UNLESS proceeding is more dangerous AT THAT MOMENT.

I grew up in a neighborhood where many of my neighbors let their dogs and cats run free. Some of the dogs and cats lived to be quite old, others...not so much. Why? Because the ones that survived LOOKED and ASSESSED auto traffic using our street. They crossed when nothing was coming. It is so easy a freaking CAT or DOG can figure it out on their own! Birds do it too. Ever seen a flock of crows or vultures picking a carcass in the middle of a travel lane? When a car approaches, they fly away. When the coast is clear, they resume their activity in the road. Pigeons and sparrows do the same in the city. You know how small a sparrow's brain is?

IN GENERAL, stopped anywhere in the road - especially in a busy intersection - is more dangerous than to keep moving IF YOU CAN. This is all anyone is saying here. Present a moving target, not a sitting duck IF YOU CAN.

I married one. 20 years now in fact.

Mark Stone

A great thread. Even though it has gotten heated and verrrrry entertaining, it has remained objective. Emotions are to be expected, however at this time we need to remind participants to refrain from any personal attacks or name-calling. Thank you!

EDIT: No one has gotten personal yet, however we wanted to post this reminder. For now the thread will remain open.

El Cid

That was me. This thread is an example of what I like to call "heated agreement". When you get right sown to it, everyone agrees on the basics: The path blockers were rude, and the OP was almost as bad in how he handled it. But somehow we still find a way to argue.

Paul Barnard

[QUOTE=kickstart;17218751]Me too. I am not a hardcore rider. I do it for fun and fitness. Everyone I encounter on the path helps break the monotony. I really enjoy seeing families with children on the path. I slow to a crawl as I pass them and always tell the kids their bikes are cool.

JoeyBike

[QUOTE=Paul Barnard;17227849]I usually say "Cool helmet!" as I go past. Especially if the helmet has dinosaurs or other cool graphics I can't ever find in adult helmets. I know their parents likely went through Hell getting the kids to wear the thing and since I am wearing a helmet it does not come off as sarcastic. If the path is blocked by them (making me slow down or stop) and their parents are bare-headed I will add "and you're smarter than your dad (or mom)"

I-Like-To-Bike

Pretty stupid as well as arrogant behavior for someone who continually reminds everybody on BF how violent the residents of your hometown can be. The parents would be justified, at the very least, to inform you that you are a smug SOB who should MYOB and shut your dang mouth before someone else does.

Mark Stone

Closed at OP request