Digital_Cowboy

Kickstart,

And sadly, when the day comes that he does end up getting hit because he “knows” that it is “safe” to run the red light/stop sign he’ll end up sounding just like the many motorists who have hit cyclists, “Officer, I didn’t see the car. It just appeared out of nowhere.”

Good example, good example.

Digital_Cowboy

Jaywalk3r,

Then I suggest that you and your fellow cyclists where you live band together and petition for a change in the law. But don’t be surprised if “the powers that be” are unwilling to listen to a bunch of scofflaws.

JoeyBike

DC...I am going to throw you a bone here. I am going to tell you exactly how I am going to die running a red light IF that ever happens. I know the scenario is possible and it relates to your "blind" driveway issue.

If I shoot through an intersection that is 35 mph or greater with curbside parking there is one distinct danger that COULD, possibly, on a perfect day, nail me. A car parked to my right on the crossing roadway is facing me and is trying to catch a gap in a line of fast moving cars going from my right to my left. In other words, I have just crossed the first set of lanes (traffic moving from my left to my right) on a red and am looking for a gap in the traffic moving from right to left on the far side of the intersection. The parked car operator is looking in his side mirror for a gap in traffic roaring up behind him. He sees a gap coming, and I am looking to cross through that very same gap. I commit myself at speed to shoot the gap and at the same time the parked car nails the accelerator and takes my gap away. WHAMO! End of me.

The only thing preventing this from occurring is the fact that I am aware of the possibility (even though I have never experienced this) and look for heads in the first few parked cars before I proceed. Thankfully, no one tints their windshields. But is is possible that one day there is a pretty girl in platform shoes wearing Daisy Dukes on that very corner who takes my eye off the ball for just long enough to not look for heads. Then I am dead. So I give you that one. Happy Friday.


I used the "tree falling" analogy earlier today in another thread. So might as well wear it out.

"If an inconsiderate group of cyclists mindlessly and rudely block the MUP and I am not there to see it, would it still bother me?"

The answer is NO. Someone is likely blocking the MUP RIGHT NOW and I don't care because I avoid the places that aggravate me on a regular basis whenever possible.

Digital_Cowboy

Jaywalk3r,

Again based on personal experience where I live so few cyclists either slow down or do anything to suggest that they’re looking both ways, before blowing the red light/stop sign. They like too many pedestrian’s where I live just go and expect motorists to be able to stop on a dime.

Don’t be surprised that given according to you that local LE doesn’t care if you break the law, that the laws of physics catches up with you. As no matter how careful you think that you are in making sure that it is “safe” for you to run a red light or stop sign. That one of these days a car is going to “come out of nowhere” and hit you. What are you going to say then?

Again, if that is the case get your friends together and get a petition up to have the law changed. That is how in a civilized society people get things done. Yes, people do engage in civil disobedience at first to attract attention to a bad law, but once others know about the bad law they work within the system to get the law changed, they do not continue with the civil disobedience, as that IS counterproductive.

As an example of pedestrians doing what they want, a 17-year old girl was just hit this morning. She was crossing against the light, and a good 20’ OUTSIDE of the crosswalk. I’m sure that in her mind she was “safe” in doing so, but clearly she wasn’t, for the very simple fact that she was HIT by a truck while jaywalking.

Also as I’ve said where I live we’re number 2 in the nation for cyclist and pedestrian crashes and fatalities. Does that really sound like some place where it is “safe” for cyclists or pedestrians to do what they want, when they want, where they want? I’m sorry, but I WILL follow the law, and I do not feel bad for doing so, nor do I feel as if I am causing an inconvenience for any other road user. As based on conversations that I have overheard even when cyclists are acting legally that the average motorist doesn’t understand it. So why add to that confusion? Why add to that animosity? Is it really that difficult to obey the law?

I-Like-To-Bike

What a coincidence! Do you witness light runner bicycling accidents in your dreams too?

Digital_Cowboy

Kickstart,

Well said, and sadly people like Jaywalk3r, JoeyBike, etc. are selfish and are not really considering anyone else’s needs but their own. They are just as bad as the motorists who do not signal when changing lanes, or making turns, or who fail to come to a stop before making a right turn on red.

If as they say that their actions benefit EVERYONE on the road why have I overheard conversations out in public where people are complaining about cyclists running red lights, stop signs, etc? Given that according to the above-mentioned individuals their actions supposedly “benefits everyone” then shouldn’t “everyone” AUTOMATICALLY know that? And I’d be willing to bet that the reactions that Joey has received from motorists is NOT because it has dawned on them that he is “right,” but because they can’t believe that he has the hubris to think that what he is doing is safe, polite, and for the benefit of “everyone” on the road.

kickstart

Nice to know you think its fodder for snarkey remarks.

Digital_Cowboy

Kickstart,

Sadly, I am not surprised. As I said in another recent post. Just this morning we had a 17-year old girl who was hit while jaywalking. She was crossing against the light and a good 20’ outside of the crosswalk.

Too many people think that they can do what they want, when they want, and where they want. The sad truth is that, yes, they may get away with their actions for a while, but eventually the laws of physics WILL catch up with them. Hopefully there isn’t a Darwin Award in their future when that happens.

I am also not surprised that the two most outspoken people in this thread think that they’re actions are “right.” As has been said, their actions are no different then the motorists who regularly speed, fail to signal lane changes, turns, or who fail to come to a stop before making a right on red turn.

I-Like-To-Bike

Why don't you provide some details about what you "witnessed?" Like, ya know, was the "light runner" a bicyclist? Got hit by what? Any damage? Did you offer assistance?

kickstart

Both vehicles were obviously totaled, but fortunately neither person was seriously injured. I'm willing to bet the person who ran the red thought it would be OK too.

kickstart

An SUV and a minivan, the SUV ran the fresh red and the minivan pulled out in front of it, a city worker was also present and radioed the appropriate authorities. If there was something to be amused by, its that both women were on their phones within two minutes of the collision.

I-Like-To-Bike

Got it. You thought your vague reference to a "light runner" accident that in fact did not involve a bicyclist was relevant. Well I suppose it is just as relevant as someone else posting a reference witnessing a jaywalking accident.

I-Like-To-Bike

Before or after the accident? BTW, how do you know, were they talking to you?

Perhaps more relevant to the accident investigation is any evidence that the parties were using a cell phone immediately prior to or during the collision.

kickstart

They both whipped them out after the collision, I don't know about beforehand because there were vehicles in front of me, all I saw were their roof tops when it happened.

The point is it was a unpleasant reminder of the possibility when one does as they want instead of what they should.

Jaywalk3r

It is nothing like speeding.

I see that you wholly failed to find any scenario in which Idaho stopping practices can increase danger or inconvenience for any road users, compared to blindly obeying laws at intersections. And we know there are scenarios in which Idaho stopping can increase safety for the rider and convenience for all road users at the intersection.

So you'll forgive me for dismissing your suggestion as unjustified, ignorant BS.

Jaywalk3r

Sounds like he failed to yield. That is never an issue with Idaho stopping, by its very nature.

Jaywalk3r

It must take you a really long time to cross an intersection. That doesn't seem to be a problem for many of us. Your "blind driveway" example is a red herring. By the time a vehicle could reach the intersection from such a driveway, most of us would be safely through the intersection and then some.

No it wasn't. He failed to extend any common courtesy. Instead, he played the role of instigator.

kickstart

Yeah, what do I know as a professional driver with 25+ years of experience, training, and having been a trainer.

I forget as a mere mortal, A&S is populated by those with god like omnipotence, skills, coordination, athletic ability, and are incapable of making errors.

I genuflect in your general direction.

Jaywalk3r

Enough with your straw men. The behavior you are describing as dangerous in no way resembles how I ride. I always verify the way is clear and yield the right of way to whomever it should belong to.


Ironic, since it's the laws of physics that makes stopping and waiting at intersection more dangerous than proceeding as soon as it is safe to do so.

That is a risk that applies equally, if not even more, to blindly following traffic laws. You realize that, right?

It is neither my intention nor my responsibility to appease motorists.

No, but obeying the law is not always consistent with safely operating a bicycle.

Jaywalk3r

Enjoy the bliss of your ignorance.

JoeyBike

Likely from behind me while I am waiting at a red light with no crossing traffic.

DC...do you think that you are totally safe lingering at an intersection? Like a runner standing on third base? You are dead in the water man. A sitting duck. There is no maneuver you can make to avoid trouble at Zero MPH with a foot on the ground. Sure, there is zero chance of YOU hitting someone. Then the light goes green and instead of being two blocks up the road riding all by your lonesome, now you are surrounded by clown cars at rush hour. Not sure how that translates to "safe" in your language. But I agree you should most definitely save your skin out there however you see fit.


I would LOVE to see details on each and every one of those accidents. Those stats would be quite educational for sure. Of course, too often the person with the TRUE story can't tell us about it.

Digital_Cowboy

Why would you assume that it takes me “a really long time to cross an intersection?”

No, the larger group was the one who started everything by blocking the entire trail/MUP/path. Had they not been blocking the trail/MUP/path there would have been no need for the OP to say anything to them. Instead of using the facilities that were more likely than not provided for people to sit and talk instead of parking themselves in the middle of the trail where common sense should have told them that others would want to travel through.

Again, though I do agree that the OP could have handled things differently, but the same is true for the larger group that was blocking the trail/MUP/path. As had they not been blocking it no one would have had to exchange words.

JoeyBike

The red light runner was looking at their phone or something OTHER than through the windshield! Had Digital_Cowboy been waiting patiently and safely for that red light he would have been CRUSHED.

"Thought it would be OK"??? Really??? This is your take on the red light runner?

O...M...G...!

Jaywalk3r

If it didn't, you wouldn't be unnecessarily concerned with hidden driveways. You'd know you could easily be safely through the intersection (and beyond) before a car could pull out of such a driveway and move into the intersection.

KD5NRH

Had one here not too long ago that tried to use an F250 as a proctoscope for a Freightliner that was stopped at a light. Don't think he even made it onto the brakes. If they can't see that in front of them, a bike has no chance.