Digital_Cowboy

Rebel,

True, but hypothetically speaking if as the officer was approaching the car s/he saw something suspicious within the car that would be grounds for searching the car. Likewise it is amazing how many people are willing to allow the police to search their car just by asking.

One tactic that police have been known to use, is the “tried and true” ploy of “if you have nothing to hide, you won’t mind if we search your (fill in the blank).”

So yes, a LEO needs probable cause to conduct a search, BUT if the driver or homeowner, or renter grants permission for the LEO to conduct a search that is also all that they need in order to conduct a search.

JoeyBike

Sure. Light butter on mine please.

J.C. Koto

This thread has gorn so far off the rails it must have sprouted wings.</fnord>

rebel1916

Wow, BF is better than the academy and all them CJ classes put together.

Digital_Cowboy

Joey,

Given the videos that you’ve posted in the past, along with the commentary you’ll forgive us if we find it hard to believe that you actually ride your bike without breaking any laws.

kickstart

Sorry to disappoint, no trap, just an honest question as some claim its not possible, or they're not able to ride safely in a lawful manner.

I won't ask why you choose to not do what you're capable of doing, because if you're honest, it would be the same answer that's true for every one of us.

Welcome to the flock.

Jaywalk3r

What makes my actions right is that my actions can only enhance my safety, not detract from it, and they can only increase convenience for other road users, not decrease it. There is zero downside. Why in the world would I intentionally increase the risk of my rides by blindly following ill-conceived traffic laws?

kickstart

Not really, its an abject lesson that shows we all perceive and react to things differently. most conflicts can be avoided with a little empathy and humility.

Digital_Cowboy

Jaywalk3r,

You’ll have to forgive me if I do not buy this BS that running red lights and stop signs somehow “enhances” the red light/stop sign runner’s safety or that it “increases” the convenience of other road users. I’m sorry, but I just do NOT buy it.

As in reality all it does is send the message that the rules/laws of the road don’t apply to us.

Zero downside?!? Really, are you sure? What happens come the day when you are oh so sure that the crossroad is “clear,” you go ahead and blow through the intersection only to end up getting T-boned by a car that you didn’t see?

And please do NOT insult mine/our intelligence by saying that it isn’t going to happen. As I’ve said before here where I live I’ve seen way too many cyclists start to run a red light only to “think” better of it when they realize that there is TOO much traffic to do so safely. Usually accompanied by the squealing of car brakes.

Just the other day while I was shopping I overheard another shopper complaining about the behavior of cyclists. It’s because of people like yourself, and Joey and all the others who run red lights/stop signs without even slowing down that add to the hostility that many motorists feel towards cyclists.

Jaywalk3r

It's quite simple, really, not BS at all. Intersections are dangerous for cyclists. (That's where the majority of automobile-bicycle collisions occur.) The longer cyclists sit at intersections, the more the greater their risk exposure. Proceeding through the intersection as soon as it is safe helps reduce that risk exposure. Proceeding through the intersection also tends to allow the cyclist to be far enough away from the intersection to allow safer passing by motorists. If cyclists proceed through with motor vehicles, then some motorists will attempt to pass in an unsafe manner in the intersection.

On the other hand, as long as cyclists yield the right of way when required, there is no drawback to proceeding through an intersection on red or rolling through a stop sign. And doing the latter often saves other motorists time.

JoeyBike

That's cool. Please realize that just because something is outside of your range of experience, or would be difficult to accomplish in your location with your abilities, does not mean it does not exist elsewhere.

I hear motorists complaining about other motorists all the time too. And every time some old coot asks me "Are you one of those cyclists who runs red lights?" I respond with "Do you really want me stopped in FRONT of you when the light turns green?" No one has ever answered "Yes" to that question. I just get stuttering and stammering to which I simply respond with "Uuuuuh....huuuuuh". "I am running the red lights out of politeness towards YOU. Ever think of that?" More stammering. Motorists are NEVER going to be happy with cyclists or even other motorists. So I really have nothing to lose by making myself happy and safe.

My city has installed tons of bike lanes and other bike friendly infrastructure. I now gravitate toward those roadways. If I have a PLACE TO BE when the light goes green, I am much more likely to stop for a red light if no thugs are in sight. Like I said...I am lazy and happy to catch a break and my breath. Funny thing I noticed that by slowing down and stopping for red lights because I have a nice bike lane to "protect me" I have exposed myself to a truckload of right hook attempts. This is because cars cannot turn hard right at 20+ MPH without flipping over or hitting a telephone pole so they just followed me to their turn. Now, at a more leisurely pace they can, and do, cut right in front of me on a daily basis. Also, because I am leaving the green lights with a string of cars RIGHT NEXT TO ME, I am giving 1000% more motorists a nice clean shot at right hooking me and they are happy to oblige me. My old riding style was much, much safer. I sure don't get any extra respect from those @$$hat$ because I stopped at a red light. I use a helmet mounted mirror which helps avoid right hook "success" stories but I am strongly considering just reverting back to my old, safe style of running the reds and cycling in the car-free gaps created by the red light.

In order to be "safer" stopping for every red light I would have to sit at the new green light and wait for all of the motorists next to me and behind me to look up from their phones and proceed across the intersection, then follow the last car and hope that the light does not go red again. This is another technique that allows me to avoid right hooks by minimizing the numbers of cars overtaking me. Is it legal to hang out at a green light for 30 seconds in a bike lane with cars on both sides of me at an intersection? Is it REALLY safe? As safe as just running the red from the start?

I am however very happy for you that you do not have these experiences to draw from. And it is certainly not in my range of experience to be as safe with a pack of cars all around me as I am on the same road all by myself. I would love to hear your rational for how mixing it up with cars (unnecessarily I might add) is safer than cycling alone in a vacuum. Good luck with that. Don't think I will be buying it regardless.

Digital_Cowboy

Rebel,

I suppose that you are going to try and tell us that the cops have never lied to or misled a suspect during the course of their investigation.

kickstart

Some can fool themselves all the time, and everyone fools themselves some of the time, but they can not fool the rest of us.

mrodgers

Ironically, it came from a little placard a friend had on the dashboard of his car way back in my road racing (not street racing, it was in the middle of nowhere) younger days, "Drive no faster than your guardian angel can fly." Also had, "If you're not the lead dog, the scenery never changes." which could be fitting to a signature in a bike forum as well with all the talk about scofflaw cyclists and speed crazy Strava folk.

Digital_Cowboy

Jaywalk3r,

I would say that that is the theory, but as I have said time-and-time again I have witnessed far TOO many cyclists where I live who do NOT look to make sure that the intersection is clear. Before running either a red light or stop sign.

Also as I have said where I live there are too many intersections that look as if they have “clear” sight lines, but in reality there are driveways that are just hidden from view.

So again, you’ll forgive me if I call BS on running red lights/stop signs is somehow safer. I could possibly agree IF cyclists didn’t just blow through red lights/stop signs. And as I have said more then once that is exactly what I have personally witnessed.

rebel1916

Well that was a total non sequitor. And it seems you are all for it when it comes to cops not being lazy and catching Ted Bundy, but against it when trying to trip someone up after you rapidly change the subject on them. Intriguing.

Digital_Cowboy

No, my experience is that most cyclists who attempt to run red lights/stop signs do so without attempting to slow down.

Sorry, again, I just am not buying it. They’re probably shocked at your hubris in thinking that you’re doing them a “favor” by running the red light or stop sign.

Surly with all of your experience you must know that a bike lane is NOT always the safest place for a cyclist either.

Yes, I know that intersections are a danger zone for cyclists, but in my experience I haven’t had the encounters that you claim to have had. Hell when I’m making a left turn from the left hand turn lane or the left side of the road I take charge of the intersection.

That’s fine, you don’t have to buy it anymore then I have to buy that what you’re doing is “safe” or “polite.”

Digital_Cowboy

Agreed.

JoeyBike

Like I said, I live in a city where it is cultural to run red lights whenever we can. I see hundreds of cyclists run reds each week and none of them seem suicidal to me. They simply go when they can go same as if the intersection was protected by a 2-way stop sign. It is so easy that I am beginning to think you are just a troll taking pleasure in making some of us say the same thing over and over ten different ways. Judging by your ability to type proper sentence structure in your posts I know full well you are no dummy. So the simple concept of "Look both ways before crossing ANY street" cannot possibly be escaping you. You leave me no choice but to assume that you are just having some fun on the Internet in your own way.

So congrats. You got me. I'm Out!

Digital_Cowboy

Mrodgers,

Cool, and I have to agree with you. One of these days their guardian angle is going to “fail.”

Digital_Cowboy

Joey,

That may be where you live, and I am sorry, but still does not make it right.

I am telling you what my experience has been. And that is that where I live I see way too many cyclists trying to run red lights and stop signs without slowing. Hell you, yourself have admitted to running red lights/stop signs without breaking stride. You’ve also have admitted to buzzing pedestrians.

And I am truly glad that so far you have gotten away with doing so, but one of these days your behavior is going to catch up with you.

No, I am not a troll, as I just said I am telling you what my experience is, and that it differs from yours.

As I’ve said, I have witnessed plenty of both cyclists and pedestrians who fail to do so.

wphamilton

I didn't get the point across, and it's kind of crucial to this perspective. It's not "the light" itself isn't working, but the directing traffic by the light isn't working.

You said that the traffic control doesn't provide safety if some people ignore it. That's true, and if you have one bike blowing reds while drivers are obediently stopping and going as directed, he's creating an accident picture. If you have every third vehicle blowing the red, even more so. The light isn't working to control traffic and provide safety, because no one moving through the intersection is assured that cross traffic will stop. If in addition, very few cyclists actually stop and wait in that locale, the benefit of riding in a predictable and expected manner is lost by stopping. I know that you disagree, but if that's really the situation I'd be running the reds also, whenever it's clear enough.

unterhausen

MOD note: using Joey's riding style against him in every thread where he posts constitutes harassment. Please stop doing that.

anyone still interested in the original subject of this thread?

wphamilton

Maybe a followup by OP would be interesting, if he's seen the same group again or now that it's a few days later what would he do differently, if anything.

Bandera

Certainly not the OP, conspicuous by his absence.