Feldman

So, please tell me why police should not be required to sieze and destroy any cell phone in use by a driver and what on earth is the difference between crunching a cell phone and pouring out an open bottle of booze? I'm just not ****ing ignorant enough to think that it's a bad idea.

2manybikes

Good point. Seems like many, if not most, riders do not understand this.

I-Like-To-Bike

I think most riders do understand that riding in the center of a busy traffic lane (especially high speed) is seldom the best practice and ride accordingly. The exception is a relative small cult of riders who swear by the "Take the Lane" dogma espoused by the disciples of Effective/Vehicular Cycling.

A&S ranting should not be thought of as representative of the capability of most riders in understanding how to ride in their own cycling environment.

This thread is a two-fer rant fest: The subjects being both the mystical powers of "Taking The Lane" as well as the unbridled terror on the well being of cyclists by cell phone use.

genec

Fortunately for most cyclists out there... they don't take the lane (they are not actually disciples of Effective/Vehicular Cycling "take the lane" mentality) and instead tend to seek things like bike lanes... those same cyclists are also vastly aware of the power of the mass and speed of moving vehicles... and thus also tend to be leery of cell phone using motorists... and seek to avoid them, thus avoiding the potential crashes caused by cell phone zombies.

Cyclists are all about self preservation... be it ninja cyclists that consider themselves invisible and thus swoop through the moving vehicles... or the JoeyBikes that tend to simply ignore the lights and signs in an effort to outrun the zombies or cyclists that seek low volume roads and bike lanes to avoid encounters with cell phone zombies... really, few cyclists tend to be right in the lane, by choice.

howsteepisit

Why ask me, this question is better left to legal scholars. But in my opinion I do not want any police office to have the authority to seize and destroy property without a court order. that said, I would not object to the seizure of cell phones when a police officer sees a driver using one and letting a judge decide what to do with the confiscated phone, but I fear the practicalities of such would be overwhelming, so a simple traffic ticket and fine is probably adequate.

JoeyBike

Should the cop hang up his/her phone while writing the ticket? That would be good form at least.

howsteepisit

Yes a distracted cop is liable to be dead.

genec

Seems like seizing it, dropping it in an evidence bag and tagging it with a ticket number might be just the trick... I wonder how many cell phones would have to be seized before the public got the message.

The offending cell phone user could then get their phone back by going to the proper public office, and paying the fine, plus a handling fee... thus satisfying the law, the city coffers and delivering the personal property right back to the owner.... albeit after a bit of grief.

I-Like-To-Bike

Why such half measures to protect cyclists from big bad motorists?

Why not have agents of the police state immediately "temporarily" confiscate the keys, or better yet the entire motor vehicle, after any alleged traffic violation is reported or observed, only to be returned after final adjudication of innocence is determined in court?

Needless to say any homemade video submitted by any cyclist of any alleged motorist transgression should be considered prima facie evidence sufficient to initiate this safety measure.

What liberty luvin' cyclist would object, eh?

genec

BTW, not to protect just cyclists...

But to protect the general public at large from cell phone zombie drivers. Who cares about cyclists... they are a tiny minority that just doesn't matter. What, you think cell phone laws are on the books to protect cyclists?

I have a feeling cell phone zombie drivers have done far far more damage to automotive and personal property than to cyclists... we cyclists are just collateral damage.

We just happen to be discussing this on a bike forum... but in fact far more harm due to unbridled cell phone use has come to vastly more people than just cyclists... But then you apparently fail to notice the news reports of planes and trains and cars being crashed by cell phone zombies.

I-Like-To-Bike

OK, confiscate the trains and planes too.

How about police state protection from zombies, people who dress differently and other alleged evil doers behind every tree as well as behind the wheel that some people irrationally fear?

kickstart

While I agree cell phones have become a scapegoat for a bigger problem, its still part of the problem. The problem being that too many think the rules don't apply to them because they can get away with taking unnecessary risks...most of the time.

Impounding vehicles and phones might be a very effective way of reestablishing the concept of lawful behavior on public property.

genec

Ah yes... resorting to absurd arguments now...

I never suggested confiscating the car, just the phone... as after all, there are actual laws on the books of many states against driving while using the cell phone.

But hey, you want to take it silly extremes... let's talk about the evil doers behind every tree that certain government agencies seem to think exist...

Meanwhile, for cell phone use... There are actual post collision reports that have cited cell phone distraction as the root cause of a number of crashes. Apparently you don't believe in the results of such reports.

JoeyBike

...likely to set a new world record for getting threads shut down.

KD5NRH

The city can't afford to have all their cell phones destroyed. I'm not sure I've seen a city vehicle being driven by someone who wasn't on the phone in the last few years.

CliffordK

I have to say that I believe that there are places where talking on the cell phone is just fine.
And places where it is not safe.

A good driver will consider the safety of the situation and their skills and use that to determine whether or not to use the phone, and hang up or put the phone down at a busy interchange.

For confiscating vehicles... should the police also confiscate any bike that happens to run a red light, or do a rolling stop without a car in sight? And, perhaps no way to actually trigger the light to change?

As far as writing tickets... many police officers fail to consider the situation. They are more likely to write tickets for failure to wear a seatbelt on a 25 MPH residential street where the seatbelt may cause more harm than good due to whiplash than writing the tickets on a 60+ MPH freeway where the seatbelts are important.

I've safely used cell phones to get directions to a person's house (driving 5 MPH and paying close attention to everything around me).

genec

A good driver will do lots of things right... it is never "the good drivers" that bother me.

It is the mediocre driver that is already under full mental load just by driving, that also chooses to check facebook or some other idiotic thing while juggling a starbucks coffee at the same time... behind tinted windows, while speeding... those are the folks that bear watching.

Indeed there are places where cell phone use is not likely to be hazard to anyone but the driver themselves... there are long open stretches of interstate freeway in some states where no one else is around for a half mile in any direction.... these are great places to use a cell phone.

But in congested city traffic moving at 45MPH with pedestrians crossing right around the corner, and and cyclists taking the lane... A GOOD DRIVER would have both hands on the wheel and all resources focused on driving.

I suspect the driver in the OP was not "A GOOD DRIVER:"

kickstart

Vehicles may be impounded under certain mitigating circumstances such as DUI, suspended licence, or speeds more than 20 mph over the limit. Active use of a device such as hand held talking or texting that cause a driver to behave in an impaired manner would be a legitimate justification to impound personal property.

Minor traffic infractions, and passive device usage such as GPS or music don't fall under the same category of being a clear and present danger.

howsteepisit

The OP is not about talking on the phone as much as facebooking and other smart phone internet use, very different than talking I think

genec

True.

Face buried in screen... eyes off the road.

That IS indeed a different situation from that of simply talking.

Problem is... lots of folks text and do other "face buried in screen" things while driving.

The whole truth is that cell phone use is part of a much larger driver distraction issue... from making phone calls to eating tacos to fiddling with the radio and much much more... all are driver distractions... heck, cup holders didn't even exist in cars until the what 1983 (yeah, I know there were aftermarket models available long before that)

The amount of other things available to distract the wayward pilot of a ton or so of moving metal, plastic and glass has vastly increased since the advent of the 5 button radio... but the fact is, few of these earlier distractions demand that the vehicle operator stare at them. Smart phones, GPSs, and touch screens all demand the eyes of the vehicle operator. These distractions go right to the heart of what a driver has to do to drive... drivers must see. A driver can be hard of hearing, not able to smell, have other physical disabilities, but the driver must be able to see. (although the poor eyesight that passes for vision does raise some questions).

Above all, a driver must look ahead and make decisions about what to do as a responsible vehicle pilot... a driver must see. The eyes must be on the road... yet, in recent times... in particular, since the advent of the smart phone... (yes, texting was available on earlier "dumb phones" and was a hazard then) the eyes of the driver have been increasingly pulled from the duty of looking ahead. This distraction is voluntary... the driver is somehow determining that whatever is on the road ahead is of less value to them than that which is on the display screen nearby... be it GPS, Smartphone or some other touch screen... that is time the driver is devoting to not maintaining their duty as a motorist.

Touchscreens are particularly insidious... as mere use of them requires the operator to look at the screen to select some option. Early designs of automobiles used knobs, and dials and buttons... all physical objects that could be selected by feel and actuated. But a touch screen requires a look... there is no "home row" for a touch screen. There is no 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock for a touch screen. Touch screens display icons; icons that must be seen and activated by touch.

So yes, voice only is different, as are knobs and levers and dials and buttons... but screens that demand attention... that is, removing the attention of the driver from the road... well those are particularly BAD.

Chris516

The thread is just another example of motorists' being 'involved with', their cell phone. Instead of the road. Cell phone use includes anything to do with a cell phone while driving.

Dave Cutter

Facebook chat messages, alleged driver inattention, Oxycodone and Midazolam, and a car with crappy tires.

Yet... some people still think laws and/or process might have somehow magically changed this woman's fate? That wouldn't hold true to my lifetime of experiences.

I-Like-To-Bike

Say What? I believe the OP has clarified what he is talking about.
The OP is as hyper about ANY use of a cell phone as he is about ALWAYS Taking the Lane.

What I am talking about is commentary from several posters that borders on hysteria, paranoia, and/or irrational fear, and proposed legal solutions based on same.

howsteepisit

I was trying to interpret the news story, which is about facebooking. I was wrong about the posters intent, which apparently is any reason is good reason to take the lane. Sorry.

I-Like-To-Bike

No need to be sorry, a similar situation is that any mention of distraction, let alone a cell phone, brings forth hyperbolic commentary from posters seemingly with a death grip on their handlebars and eyes locked in focus on the road ahead and behind as well as they ride in fear for their lives.