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Sora 3503 and R3030 shifters - same pull ratio?

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Sora 3503 and R3030 shifters - same pull ratio?

Old 01-25-17, 09:07 AM
  #1  
agenkin
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Sora 3503 and R3030 shifters - same pull ratio?

Has anyone had any experience with the new R3000 series Sora STI shifters? When they were announced a year ago, there were opinions that they may or may not have different pull ratio from the previous 3500 series shifters, despite both being 9 speed.

Wondering if anyone knows for sure whether they are interchangeable.
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Old 01-25-17, 09:53 AM
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Very doubtful that they would be, in order to run cables under the bar tape Shimano had to redesign their shifters. The first attempts were less successful than the design they are using for the 11 speed groups and 10 speed Tiagra. On the plus side, this means that you would be able to use higher end derailleurs with the newest Sora shifters which wasn't previously possible
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Old 01-25-17, 10:01 AM
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If they are both road shifters, both Shimano shifters, and both 9sp shifters, I cannot imagine they would have different pull ratios.
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Old 01-25-17, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
If they are both road shifters, both Shimano shifters, and both 9sp shifters, I cannot imagine they would have different pull ratios.
Tiagra 4600 and 4700 are both road shifters and both 10 speed yet they are not intercompatible
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Old 01-25-17, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
Tiagra 4600 and 4700 are both road shifters and both 10 speed yet they are not intercompatible
Why do they do this to us? Why, why, why??!!
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Old 01-25-17, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Why do they do this to us? Why, why, why??!!
They are simply employing better shifting action from higher end groups. This also means that upgrading can be done without buying complete groupsets

Last edited by alcjphil; 01-25-17 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 01-25-17, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Why do they do this to us? Why, why, why??!!
Shimano tried to use the same rear derailleur ratio (SIS), but then came 9-10 speed. They had to decrease the cable pull each time. This got pretty bad on 10spd. 10 speed SIS road systems are very sensitive to setup, or dirty, old cables. They pull very very little cable so everything needs to be very precise.

Shimano then introduced 10 speed on mountain bikes and used an entirely different cable pull and derailleur ratio so the system works overall better, especially in harsh environments. Dyna-Sys. A Dyna-Sys 10 speed mountain shifter pulls more cable than a 6 speed shifter...

When 11 speed came out Shimano changed the derailleur ratio on road stuff too, so the shifters can pull more cable. It works pretty good, but this means no backwards compatibility for SIS rear derailleurs. Later this trickled down to Tiagra 4700 and now Sora R3000. (SRAM with their 1:1 and I think Campagnolo have been doing this for a long time.)

What I don't understand is that why the cable pull and derailleur ratio is not the same on 11spd road and MTB stuff... I know that more cable pull is better for MTB, but I don't see a downside if road stuff used it too. You could mix RDs.

I've heard that people bought Sora R3000 rear derailleurs for older 8-9-10 speed stuff and it did not work.

I know that Tiagra 4700 uses the same derailleur ratio as 11 speed road stuff. Maybe this is the case with R3000 too, I don't know, I only know that it is definitely different than SIS.

A good article about all of this with some useful data (sadly nothing about 4700 or R3000 yet)

http://blog.artscyclery.com/science-...compatibility/

Last edited by Facanh; 01-25-17 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 01-25-17, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
If they are both road shifters, both Shimano shifters, and both 9sp shifters, I cannot imagine they would have different pull ratios.
I'm with #alcjphil on this, until someone test a set, like Zinn/Arts, would take it initially that the new design isn't compatible with the old stuff.

Would clarify by contacting my countries Shimano main service center and asking them (at least in the UK, they will talk the the general public, and not just LBS's about things like this), even if the answer is the official line from Shimano, not what you can do with it with some ingenuity/3rd party mods.
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Old 01-25-17, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Facanh View Post
Shimano tried to use the same rear derailleur ratio (SIS), but then came 9-10 speed. They had to decrease the cable pull each time. This got pretty bad on 10spd. 10 speed SIS road systems are very sensitive to setup, or dirty, old cables. They pull very very little cable so everything needs to be very precise.

Shimano then introduced 10 speed on mountain bikes and used an entirely different cable pull and derailleur ratio so the system works overall better, especially in harsh environments. Dyna-Sys. A Dyna-Sys 10 speed mountain shifter pulls more cable than a 6 speed shifter...

When 11 speed came out Shimano changed the derailleur ratio on road stuff too, so the shifters can pull more cable. It works pretty good, but this means no backwards compatibility for SIS rear derailleurs. Later this trickled down to Tiagra 4700 and now Sora R3000. (SRAM with their 1:1 and I think Campagnolo have been doing this for a long time.)

What I don't understand is that why the cable pull and derailleur ratio is not the same on 11spd road and MTB stuff... I know that more cable pull is better for MTB, but I don't see a downside if road stuff used it too. You could mix RDs.

I've heard that people bought Sora R3000 rear derailleurs for older 8-9-10 speed stuff and it did not work.

I know that Tiagra 4700 uses the same derailleur ratio as 11 speed road stuff. Maybe this is the case with R3000 too, I don't know, I only know that it is definitely different than SIS.

A good article about all of this with some useful data (sadly nothing about 4700 or R3000 yet)

Art's Cyclery Blog Science Behind the Magic | Drivetrain Compatibility
Like you, I am a little perplexed by Shimano's decision to separate cable pull ratios on road and mountain bike derailleurs. Of course it makes no difference to someone riding only road bikes or only mountain bikes, but for people doing something in between, such as touring, it really complicates things. I predict that "9 speed" mountain bike rear derailleurs will become highly sought after items if Shimano ever discontinues production. I am using one on my touring bike currently and I am wondering if I should stockpile another, just in case. I know that Shimano had to change pull ratio in order to advance to 10 speed mountain bike shifting and to 11 speed road shifting, but in a company as big as Shimano I wonder if it was a case of the two hands not talking to each other
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Old 01-26-17, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
Like you, I am a little perplexed by Shimano's decision to separate cable pull ratios on road and mountain bike derailleurs. Of course it makes no difference to someone riding only road bikes or only mountain bikes, but for people doing something in between, such as touring, it really complicates things. I predict that "9 speed" mountain bike rear derailleurs will become highly sought after items if Shimano ever discontinues production. I am using one on my touring bike currently and I am wondering if I should stockpile another, just in case. I know that Shimano had to change pull ratio in order to advance to 10 speed mountain bike shifting and to 11 speed road shifting, but in a company as big as Shimano I wonder if it was a case of the two hands not talking to each other
Shimano also switched to the Suntour/SRAM single pivot design with their Shadow stuff (now on the new DA too) which means there is now a "minimum largest sprocket" in the specifications. On most 10 speed MTB RDs this is 36T, and on 11 speed MTB RDs this is 40T I think. There is the short cage ZEE RD for example, there is a version for 28T and a version for 36T.
I'm not an engineer but I think since the derailleur does not rotate on the upper pivot it can't follow the rise of every cassette. I've seen that if you mix up the ZEE derailleurs and use the 28T spec on a 36T cassette the chain will be completely slack.

This might limit usability on road bikes too if you use 28-32T cassettes.

Personally I would just love to run a clutch RD on my road bike natively without an adapter (or I should switch to SRAM). The roads here are so bad that sometimes my bike sounds like it's going to fall apart beucase of the chain constantly hitting the chainstay.
I've built up a hybrid fitness, road bike with straight handlebars and a clutch RD and holy crap it's like magic. I absolutely love it. Complete silence even on the worst roads.

Last edited by Facanh; 01-26-17 at 03:15 AM.
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Old 01-26-17, 11:28 PM
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Accoriding to Shimano diagram, you can mix and match all the R3030 and 3503 drive stuff. However the shifter and FD should be from the same series if running double crank.

2016-2017 SHIMANO Product Information Web

Last edited by jsdavis; 01-26-17 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 01-27-17, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jsdavis View Post
Accoriding to Shimano diagram, you can mix and match all the R3030 and 3503 drive stuff. However the shifter and FD should be from the same series if running double crank.

2016-2017 SHIMANO Product Information Web
If I'm reading that right, the only things that are cross-compatible are the triple shifters and triple FD's (and cranks, but that's kind of assumed). You can't mix and match any 2x9 shifters/FD's, as you say. But, critically, you also can't mix any of the RD's.

On the plus side, it seems like the new RD's support a much wider cassette range than most old-school road RDs, making the loss of cross compatibility with Deore less painful.

EDIT: Oops, I may have read the chart wrong, and jsdavis is correct. It looks like, at least for 2x9 groups, the R3000 and R3500 RDs are compatible, with some slight differences in max cog size.

Last edited by Metaluna; 01-27-17 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 01-27-17, 11:15 AM
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Without knowing the answer I will just mention that on the R3000 RD the cable anchor is in the same place as it always were, where as on the newer Tiagra, 105 and ultegra its moved forward and looks different. Id say thats an indicator that R3000 is like the previous version and not compatible with newest tiagra, 105 and Ultegra RDs.
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Old 06-22-17, 04:06 PM
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I just fitted an R3000 rear derailleur to my old Shimano 6 speed system successfully. This means the derailleur ratio hasn't changed from Shimano's traditional 6,7,8,9 speed. The amount of cable pulled by the shifters therefore can't have changed as the cassette pitch certainly hasn't changed.
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Old 06-23-17, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Why do they do this to us? Why, why, why??!!
In this particular instance I think it was called for. The first instalment of Shimano 10sp (older 105 and ultegra) with cables under the tape didnt work well. It was redesigned for 4700. - Now the cable pull is that of the newer 11sp groups. Often though, they just change stuff for no apparent reason.
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