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Spoke length for 4 cross compared to 3 cross.

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Spoke length for 4 cross compared to 3 cross.

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Old 05-28-17 | 07:38 PM
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Spoke length for 4 cross compared to 3 cross.

I had to take apart my new wheel I built last year to insert a new hub. So I was hoping that I would not have to cut and thread the spokes for the new hub. They are very close to what a 4 cross would be. The only problem is that they are going to cross the heads of the spokes in the opposite direction about one third. How would that work out? What kind of problems will that create?

The spokes are Sapim and the hub is a Velocity...


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Old 05-28-17 | 09:20 PM
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4 cross is too many for the rim/hub/number of spokes you have. Spoke head clearance needs to be positive number.

For the hub you have, 36 spokes, you need an ERD approaching 600mm (spoke length in 290mm range) to make 4 cross to work.

I run 3 cross on 40H with spokes in the 290mm range, and 4 cross on 48H with similar length spokes.
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Old 05-29-17 | 12:28 AM
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I've seen this approach used on cheap garbage online box bikes.
where apparently rather than order correct length spokes, they used what they had on overstock and just changed the lacing pattern to cheat it

but how do you lace it when the heads are all blocked off?
I'd assume, you have to feed all the spokes into the flanges at once first step, Before attaching Any of them to the rims.
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Old 05-29-17 | 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by xenologer
I've seen this approach used on cheap garbage online box bikes.
where apparently rather than order correct length spokes, they used what they had on overstock and just changed the lacing pattern to cheat it

but how do you lace it when the heads are all blocked off?
I'd assume, you have to feed all the spokes into the flanges at once first step, Before attaching Any of them to the rims.

There's usually enough slack while you've only started all the nipples to push the other spokes through.
But yeah, feeding all through works too.
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Old 05-29-17 | 04:51 AM
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I gave up saving old spokes. I used to have all these little bundles of spokes waiting decades for the right combination of hub and rim to build.

Dan's Comp will cut and thread exactly the right length spokes that you need in the exact quantity that you need. They're cheap too. Living near St Louis, I will typically receive a spoke order in 3 days, sometimes only 2. They do require that you place a spoke order by telephone rather than on line.

If cross 4 lacing overlaps the heads of the adjoining spoke at the hub, think of what's happening at the angle where the spoke enters the rim.
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Old 05-29-17 | 08:26 AM
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(36 hole) 4 cross, the 1st cross is the opposing spoke, on the other side of the hub flange, headed to the opposite side of the rim,

so a crude measurement would be the distance between the holes in the hub shell..
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Old 05-29-17 | 11:09 AM
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3 and 4 cross?

Is it possible to do a 4 cross on the side with only 56% tension and 3 cross on the other shorter side?
Those Sapim spokes cost too much to toss them out. I have to have a very strong wheel for my cycle truck.

I had them on a 4 cross pattern with a very small amount of head crossing about 5%....

Does the angle of the spokes make it weaker in the 4 cross?

Last edited by jawnn; 05-29-17 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 05-29-17 | 04:08 PM
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Yes. Also, if spoked like this, you will cross over other spoke heads, so if you ever need to replace 1 spoke, you will need to remove a second just to get it in...
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Old 06-05-17 | 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jawnn
Is it possible to do a 4 cross on the side with only 56% tension and 3 cross on the other shorter side?
Those Sapim spokes cost too much to toss them out. I have to have a very strong wheel for my cycle truck.

I had them on a 4 cross pattern with a very small amount of head crossing about 5%....

Does the angle of the spokes make it weaker in the 4 cross?

Depends on what you mean by "weaker".


Best bracing angle for sideways load is from a radial lace-heads-in.
As you go to (more)cross lacing, the bracing angle slackens off.
Making the wheel a bit less laterally stiff = "weaker".


If it's enough to be a problem for you, I can't tell.


Ignoring things like spoke length, a 4X will be very similar in sideways strength to a 3X built on a hub with a smaller flange diameter, or the flanges closer together.


IMO head overlap is a build/repair issue, and very unlikely to create a noticeable difference while JRA.
It'll cost you time, not usefulness.
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