johngwheeler

I had a misadventure with a recent Wiggle purchase, that included a 500ml bottle of Muc-off drivetrain cleaner.

Unfortunately my package arrived as a torn wreck, and had been repackaged inside a polythene bag by my local postal service. The seal on the Muc-Off was open and the entire bottle had leaked into the package coating everything including a GoreTex Active cycling jacket.

Apart from the loss of a couple of small items from the broken box (which I hope Wiggle will replace), I am mostly concerned with the effect of the Muc-Off on the expensive GoreTex jacket. Even though the jacket was in a thin cellophane wrapper and not obviously damp (although it might have dried in transit), it now reeks of the Muc-Off liquid, and I'm wondering if contact could have degraded the GoreTex, even if I wash it.

Muc-Off claims to be bio-degradable and non acidic, but I have no idea what it will do the fabrics.

Any ideas? Should I claim a replacement jacket from Wiggle (may not longer be available), or just wash it and get on with life?

Thanks for any advice!

sch

Since this Muc-Off (yellow stuff?)appears to be water soluble, it should wash off with a few washings. It may damage the water repellency, unknowable but
since the water repellancy does degrade with washing, according to Gore, I assume that treating it with concentrate Mucoff could accelerate the degradation.
It could be renewed with Gore's after market treatment.
Considering the cost of Goretex, I might be inclined to test Wiggle's customer service policies first, since you already have reason to contact them.
I hope you have some pix of the shipment as received for Wiggles' edification.

FBinNY 

Odds are it'll wash off well with normal laundry detergent in COLD water. Never wash oil/grease stains in hot because that can set them.

You might need to wash twice to get to the "it never happened" condition, but odds favor you.

Unfortunately the GoreTex may be a different story.

Certainly the fabric will hold up, but it's air/no water breathability depends on delicate chemistry. Call GoreTex customer service for their wash recommendations BEFORE trying anything.

If GoreTex has bad news for you, toss the mess back in Wiggles lap, since their responsibility for safe transit extends to your door. They should have done whatever was necessary to prevent/contain any leakage, or at least packed the liquid separately from goods that might be damaged by a spill.

For future reference, do not buy liquids and clothing in the same order to protect yourself from idiots in the shipping dept.

Sy Reene

Don't contact anyone except Wiggle to arrange a refund or exchange. I don't see any point in trying to salvage anything vs. just returning the whole lot and asking for a full reshipment (perhaps with the MucOff somehow separated better).

FBinNY 

This is usually the right advice, and certainly is a place to start. However, one of the problems with buying overseas is the prohibitive cost of shipping returns.

In light of that, I'd start with GoreTex to find out if the garment is salvageable without any permanent damage. If so, then the OP might be better off negotiating a concession rather than a return for refund or replacement. OTOH - if GoreTex says it's toast, then the OP needs to push hard for a refund, covering the cost of returning the goods, or big $$$ concession without returning the goods, ie. 100% on the lost stuff, 50% on the GoreTex, and 5-10% or so for the inconvenience of cleaning up the rest.

If Wiggle opts to play hardball, the OP might have recourse through the credit card company.

johngwheeler

Thanks for all the constructive advice. To be clear, the GoreTex jacket was inside a plastic bag (but only loosely sealed with an adhesive flap) and did not show noticeable signs of dampness or penetration by the MucOff. There are certainly no stains. My main concern was the jacket smelt strongly of MucOff (as did everything else in the sodden packing box). The package could have spend nearly 2 weeks in transit and so may have dried. I’ve hung the jacket out on the washing line to see if the smell disipates naturally.

I’ve also contacted Muc-Off direclty to see if they have any comment.

There are only general ingredients on the bottle of Muc-Off, that I could send to Gore:

Ccontains hydrocarbon C11-C14, n-alkanes, isoalkanes, cyclics, <2% aromatics, >30% alphatic hydrocarbons, <5% non-ionic surfactants).

Not being a chemist, I have little idea what this means for water resistant fabrics! That said, the Muc-Off is aparently water soluable, and my skin hasn’t fallen off when using it to clean my chain, so maybe there is hope :-)

I’ll see how customer-centric Wiggle are and get some feedback from Muc-Off & Gore.

I have the vague suspicion that Wiggle could try to wriggle out of it by claiming someone else (UK or Australian customs) might have opened the package to test the liquid). I’ve not heard of this happening, but it’s conceivable. I saw no customs note to this effect though, which I would expect is mandatory if they open your package.

sch

For reference gasoline/petrol is C7-8 alkanes basically so C11-14 would be noticeably oilier than gasoline, and less
likely to evaporate. The surfactant is what makes the water-insoluble alkanes 'soluble' (emulsifiable) in water.
A little surprising that these ingredients are used, they are good degreasers but not particularly environmentally
friendly. Looking up muc-off degreasers, the "bio degreaser" says C10-13 alkanes which would still be oilier than
gasoline and not exactly water-soluble without a lot of surfactant. Certainly not something to use indoors.

FBinNY 

Just as a side note, having nothing to do with the OP's problem.

I wonder if he'd check the label of the Muc-Off solvent and see if it says flammable or whatever. I ask because it is illegal to send most flammable liquids as air cargo, depending on various standards, flammability, container size, and total amount on the aircraft.

If the product is flammable, Wiggle dodged a bullet. For obvious reasons, every effort is made to minimize the fire risk in air cargo, and the fines for violators can be very hefty. Often broken/spilled liquids are how they get caught.

CliffordK

Muc Off has a lot of products:
Muc-Off - Part Info

The bio-degreaser's British version of the MSDS is here:
https://www.partinfo.co.uk/files/948%...ser%20(GB).pdf

Listed as "Extremely Flammable", and contains Butane and Propane.

They MIGHT have dodged a bullet there.

Both the Muc Off X3 Chain Cleaner and the Muc Off Bio Degreaser are currently listed as "No Longer Available". So, it is also quite possible that they products have been pulled from inventory following this incident.

wiggle.com | Muc-Off X-3 Chain Cleaner | Bike Cleaning
wiggle.com | Muc-Off Water Soluble Degreaser 500ml Aerosol | Bike Cleaning

I am a little puzzled about the "Bio" aspect. :Foo:
It sounds a lot like kerosene with a propane propellant, along with some unnamed surfactant (soap?)

Lots of notes about toxicity on the MSDS, although, the LD50 sounds relatively high. At least more than just a taste.

WizardOfBoz

The drivetrain cleaner MSDS lists:
Petroleum Distillate 64742-47-8 40-60%
Coconut Diethanolamide 68603-42-9 1-5%
Non Ionic Surfactant Polymer 26468-86-0 <5%

The CAS number (64742-47-8) specifies this as C13-C14 isoparaffinic hydrocarbon. This means that the molecules have 13 or 14 carbon molecules - bigger and heavier molecules so less volatile than mineral spirits (which are C7-C12). 64742-47-8 is also called deoderized kerosene. Not very soluble in water at all. The surfactant helps the hydrocarbon molecules form microscopic droplets called micelles, so it seems as though the hydrocarbon dissolves in water. The diethanolamide is a foaming/emulsifying agent, and performs a similar function to the surfactant.

The active surface of Gore-Tex is PTFE (DuPont's brand of PTFE is called Teflon(R)). It works by being stretched very thin so that pores develop in the surface. These pores are what let water vapor out. The physical chemistry is such that droplets of water won't go through the pores. PTFE is pretty much chemically impervious to almost all common solvents, acids and bases. You'll dissolve the fabric of the garment before you dissolve the Goretex. You can mess up the function of Goretex by washing it with the wrong soap - that's involves physical blocking of the pores.

I don't think that the Gore-tex membrane will be affected too much, and so the issue will be getting the smell of kerosene out. Use the mfr's recommended detergent to wash the GoreTex garment. It may take a few washes, but I suspect you'll be ok. I'd also hang the garment outside on a very warm day with a breeze after washing. C12-C14 hydrocarbons aren't as volatile as white spirits, but they will evaporate on a warm day.

Having said all this, I'd see if Wiggle will send you a replacement or make an allowance. They should be responsible for packaging that will resist (for example) UPS (or other shipper) patented "gorilla-matic" package handling. Of course, you're package may have been used by the shipper's employees for their daily game of "Betcha can't break this!".

Crankycrank

I would think that the shipping services should be responsible in this case. Have you checked into their insurance policies? Of course Wiggle may take care of all this for you but it doesn't appear to be their fault.

FBinNY 

Why would the carrier be responsible for leakage?

They don't control the design of the bottle or cap, nor how tightly they're sealed, and they have no way of knowing the contents of the box, nor how well it's packed. This is 100% the fault of Wiggle because they were the last in control of the packing. They might in turn can blame Muc-Off for improperly packing their product.

I've been shipping liquids for over 40 years, and have had to deal with leakage on a regular basis. Like most bad news it's not randomly uniform among my various suppliers, with some very rarely having issues, and some chronically having them. Currently I ship my product globally by air, and am constantly alert for any hint of leakage. Bottle and caps are carefully selected with preventing leakage in transit as the number one priority.

BTW - the general rule is that common carriers are responsible for loss but not damage unless they are grossly negligent. It's the shippers responsibility to ensure that contents are packed to survive the normal rough service that packages suffer in transit. When I see damage in transit, especially if there's no external evidence of mishandling I blame the shipper. Proper packing has elements of art and science. Good shippers train employees, and study damage to see how to prevent repeats. Unfortunately, too many shippers don't pay enough attention to good packing practices, figuring it's too costly to prevent them through training and care, and cheaper to simply absorb them as a cost of business.

Crankycrank

OP stated the package arrived as a "torn wreck". Sounds as though it was mishandled a bit although it could also be poor packaging which I agree would be on Wiggle.

FBinNY 

OTOH - leakage would have severely weakened the cardboard, turning it into mush. Wet boxes don't travel well.

The OP didn't mention a broken bottle, so I strongly suspect that this is a case of leakage under the cap. That is not ever the carrier's fault. However, even if the bottle broke, it still might be blamed on poor packing. Properly packed liquids DO NOT LEAK in transit. That might be the very definition of properly packed liquids.

grizzly59

Cleaner / degreaser:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-St...006P/100147127

Mess cleanerupper:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Dawn-Ult...1544/202290941

CliffordK

I have to agree with others. Talk to Wiggle on this to see if you can come to a resolution. It is quite possible they really realize that they've screwed up if they've pulled the product from online sales inventory.

As far as the coat, it is quite possible that simply letting it air out will significantly reduce the smell without washing. Or, as mentioned gentle washing per Gortex guidelines.

Or, perhaps a combination of the two. Air out some, and gently wash, followed by more airing out.

Obviously don't do anything (other than airing out???) before reaching a resolution with Wiggle. But, if you think the coat can be restored... then what if Wiggle offered a 50% refund from what you paid? Worth considering?

SClaraPokeman

This doesn't really surprise me. Many of my boxes from Wiggle arrive battered or even falling apart with contents nearly showing. I've avoided ordering any liquid cleaning agents from them because of this. Not a problem for most bike products, but if I suspect something is fragile, I just order domestically to avoid the possibility of damaged goods.

johngwheeler

Quick update on my incident.

Wiggle replied very quickly and have sent replacements for the lost items. They suggested I try the clothing to see if it has been affected, and they would be "happy to help" if I think the performance has been affected.

I have left the GoreTex jacket outside to air for a couple of days, and the smell of Muc-Off has almost gone, so I am happy to conclude that no lasting damage has been done. The water resistant outer fabric still “beads” water droplets, so all looks normal.

Muc-Off also replied to my question saying that because the solution is water soluble that a simply washing the affected clothing should work, and they did not expect any lasting damage.

That said, I will avoid shipping liquids and clothing together in future!