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Worn Campy shifter causing poor RD shifting?

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Worn Campy shifter causing poor RD shifting?

Old 03-15-18, 04:18 AM
  #1  
torger
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Worn Campy shifter causing poor RD shifting?

This is a question for the experienced Campagnolo users out there. Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to describe the situation accurately.

I've got a second hand 10 speed 2008 Campagnolo Record group that I'm using on a Colnago Master build. I don't know of the prior history of the group set, but judging from the worn rubber hoods it has been used for quite some miles. I'm having a problem with the rear derailleur shifting performance, and I'm suspecting that the shifter is simply a bit worn and needs a rebuild or a body replacement. Problem is that this is the first Record 10 speed I have ever used, so I don't know how a new one should behave, maybe it's worn, or maybe it should behave the way it does. I have a brand new 11 speed Chorus group though on another bike, which I can compare to.

While a relatively new home mechanic I'm quite confident when it comes to rear derailleur installation and tuning, which I've done successfully on a number of bikes and varying brands. I've done the hanger alignment (using Park Tool's alignment tool), shift cables are new etc, so all the standard problems are supposed to be out of the way. I have double-checked that I've installed the cassette spacers in correct order.

Despite this I now have a problem I've never had before with a derailleur: when I find the best cable tension for indexing the derailleur has a tendency to move too far between cogs -- in both directions. I can shift through the whole cassette in both directions without mis-shifts if I'm really careful when operating the shifter and stop the hand action as soon as I feel a click (which is much softer and less distinct than in my new 11 speed Chorus by the way). But still, when I shift from the largest cog to the smallest, about half-way through the derailleur has went a bit to far and start rubbing on the next smaller cog. The same counts for the opposite direction, shifting from smaller to larger cogs the chain starts to rub on the next larger cog. It's like the shifter would be indexed for 9.8 cogs rather than 10. What I think is happening is that the derailleur moves a bit extra distance after the click due to that my hand doesn't stop the pushing action *exactly* at the click.

I have noticed that I can with the thumb button and the lever release/pull cable and move the derailleur quite a bit without causing the shifter to click (say 2-3 mm sideways). I use that to manually trim the derailleur when I hear rubbing, so the shifting is certainly usable, but I suspect that this is not how it's supposed to be. I'm guessing there should be some springload or something to make it return to its neutral indexed position, but I'm not experienced enough to know. My 11 speed Chorus have louder and more distinct clicks, and doesn't have much if any manual movement between the clicks.

So my question is, is this a symptom of a worn shifter, or something else? If worn, what parts need replacing? I know it's quite tricky to rebuild (I've seen the videos, it would be an interesting challenge), but if I need to replace sort of everything I could just get a new EC-RE200 replacement body which is not too costly. The most frustrating part is not knowing the cause of the problem, or even if it should be considered a problem with this groupset.
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Old 03-15-18, 01:56 PM
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Typically, this indicates worn G springs which can be replaced quite easily. How does the right shifter feel compared to the left? The clicks should feel about the same on both sides. The other part that could be a part of the problem is the spring carrier, which you would replace at the same time as the G springs. They are not all that difficult to service, my son rebuilt his Chorus shifters last year at a cost of about $25. They work like new
The mechanism in your newer Chorus shifters is different,

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Old 03-16-18, 03:34 AM
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I've had a Centaur 10spd shifter with one broken G spring but it shifted accurately. If the shifters are worn the clicks should feel soft, and the shifter should be really quiet. A rebuilt shifter has much more "solid" and louder clicks.

The rebuild is much easier than you'd think. I've never touched a shifter in my life but rebuilding the Centaur 10spd with new springs was really easy and the two springs cost like 5 bucks. There are plenty of great tutorials out there.

Are you sure it's not a compatibility issue? I've bought a used bike before with a Campagnolo groupset where the cassette was cobbled together from all kinds of different cogs and spacers.
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Old 03-19-18, 01:36 AM
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Thanks for your replies! I compared with the front derailleur shifter (the probably much less used left shifter) and there is not too much difference in the click feel, it's kind of soft in that too compared to my brand new 11 Speed Chorus, so perhaps that difference is more about new vs old design rather than that the click itself is worn out. I did notice one difference though, the front derailleur does not have much "manual unindexed movement between clicks" at all, just as I expected the rear derailleur to behave too.

Yes I'm almost 100% positivie it's not a compatibility issue, I have two (second hand) 10 speed record cassettes from two different sources and the cogs and spacers matches between them, and seems to match the Campy manual too. I'm getting a brand new Veloce 10 speed cassette this week though which I will be testing too.

As far as I can see the problem is that large unindexed movement between clicks (2-3mm sideways movement perhaps even more), which means that it's almost like operating an unindexed shifter alltogether, the clicks are just providing a lead when exactly to stop pushing the lever. Any tiny little after-push after the click sound and the derailleur moves too far, and it won't return to the indexed position when you release the lever, so you need to listen for the chain rub and press the opposite lever the corresponding tiny amount to move the derailleur back into position. So it's still usable, but quite tricky to operate.

Maybe I'll just try a rebuild and see what happens. I guess I need to replace most parts though as I still don't understand what parts needs replacing (as far as I understand that excessive manual movement between clicks wouldn't be the cause of worn G-springs? But perhaps some other spring?), so I'm also considering to get a complete body replacement too (EC-RE200).

Last edited by torger; 03-19-18 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 03-26-18, 03:50 PM
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easy and inexpensive fix

Originally Posted by torger View Post
This is a question for the experienced Campagnolo users out there. Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to describe the situation accurately.

I've got a second hand 10 speed 2008 Campagnolo Record group that I'm using on a Colnago Master build. I don't know of the prior history of the group set, but judging from the worn rubber hoods it has been used for quite some miles. I'm having a problem with the rear derailleur shifting performance, and I'm suspecting that the shifter is simply a bit worn and needs a rebuild or a body replacement. Problem is that this is the first Record 10 speed I have ever used, so I don't know how a new one should behave, maybe it's worn, or maybe it should behave the way it does. I have a brand new 11 speed Chorus group though on another bike, which I can compare to.

While a relatively new home mechanic I'm quite confident when it comes to rear derailleur installation and tuning, which I've done successfully on a number of bikes and varying brands. I've done the hanger alignment (using Park Tool's alignment tool), shift cables are new etc, so all the standard problems are supposed to be out of the way. I have double-checked that I've installed the cassette spacers in correct order.

Despite this I now have a problem I've never had before with a derailleur: when I find the best cable tension for indexing the derailleur has a tendency to move too far between cogs -- in both directions. I can shift through the whole cassette in both directions without mis-shifts if I'm really careful when operating the shifter and stop the hand action as soon as I feel a click (which is much softer and less distinct than in my new 11 speed Chorus by the way). But still, when I shift from the largest cog to the smallest, about half-way through the derailleur has went a bit to far and start rubbing on the next smaller cog. The same counts for the opposite direction, shifting from smaller to larger cogs the chain starts to rub on the next larger cog. It's like the shifter would be indexed for 9.8 cogs rather than 10. What I think is happening is that the derailleur moves a bit extra distance after the click due to that my hand doesn't stop the pushing action *exactly* at the click.

I have noticed that I can with the thumb button and the lever release/pull cable and move the derailleur quite a bit without causing the shifter to click (say 2-3 mm sideways). I use that to manually trim the derailleur when I hear rubbing, so the shifting is certainly usable, but I suspect that this is not how it's supposed to be. I'm guessing there should be some springload or something to make it return to its neutral indexed position, but I'm not experienced enough to know. My 11 speed Chorus have louder and more distinct clicks, and doesn't have much if any manual movement between the clicks.

So my question is, is this a symptom of a worn shifter, or something else? If worn, what parts need replacing? I know it's quite tricky to rebuild (I've seen the videos, it would be an interesting challenge), but if I need to replace sort of everything I could just get a new EC-RE200 replacement body which is not too costly. The most frustrating part is not knowing the cause of the problem, or even if it should be considered a problem with this groupset.

almost with certainty, the G spring is gone. they cost almost nothing, the instructions how to do it are everywhere on the web, replace G spring holder and the big washer that goes with it at the same time. do not, i repeat, do not over grease it and use only campy recommended grease. i've done this, with excellent results. use new index cable housings, do not lubricate them if you buy new housings. the biggest job about it is to remove and take shifter apart. used shifter overhaul is generally heavily recommended. no need to buy the whole assembly, just those 3 small parts.
by many riders, yours truly included, campy ergo 2002-2010 shifters are the best shifters made to date. if you need links about where to buy the parts and how to do it, i'd be pleased to share it with you. cheers
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Old 03-26-18, 11:31 PM
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When the G springs get tired, the clicks get softer and softer but it'll usually still shift okay, unless there's also excessive wear in the RD. By the sound of it, one of your springs is broken.

Tired springs can be rejuvenated with a slight tweak.
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Old 04-03-18, 12:59 AM
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torger
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Thanks for all replies. I've been ill for a week so I haven't had time to have any further look to speak of. I have noted though and additional problem that sometimes the shifter get stuck (can move the lever to the next click), and you need to wiggle a bit to be able to shift again. I'll probably use them for a while as is before I do a rebuild to just get a short pause from bike building and do some actual riding :-).
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Old 04-03-18, 06:20 PM
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Check that your hoods are not getting in the way and softening the click. I have Chorus 10 from that era and my shifting went to **** when I put new hoods on. They just don't fit quite right and get in the way of the levers. I think they are the next generation hoods. It's a simple check and would be easy to fix if one can find the right hoods.
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Old 05-27-18, 06:55 AM
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Where do we get these springs for a Record 1997 shifters and anyone help out with the best video? Thanks
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