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Critique my wheel components

Old 03-26-18, 02:02 PM
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Critique my wheel components

I'm building my first wheel set for my Giant Toughroad. Main motivation is I want to try out all my new wheel tools and want to go tubeless (and the Giant rims my bike came with may or may not be tubeless, but don't want fuss). and i can re-use the giant wheels on a project bike. I also want to see how economical one can build a good wheel.

I realize the first wheel is not the best one ever and I try to stay economical. the Toughroad has 100/135mm QR. My weight is 190# (geared up inc. 3 l water, some food etc.). Riding will be pavements, unpaved paths and maybe some single track (but just to ride through, not actual action). We have big potholes. i have wand will keep using 2" tires (will get new official tubeless ones)

Hubs: i prefer cartridge bearing, but for brand names (forget about novatec) that would mean spending a lot. so i narrowed it down to shimano XT ($70 for both at CRC). they had some additional seals compared to lower end shimano hubs. That is the part I'm not 100% happy with, but really good cartridge bearing hubs seem to be close to $200 the pair (QR seems to fall out of favor anyway). If you have better suggestions, please.

Spokes: DT Swiss double-butted, 32 in each wheel. Not sure if 28 in front wheel would be good. about $1 from bike24 (if you are not logged in, prices show with Value added tax, which doesn't apply to US shipment). will use brass nipples.

Rims: I found DT Swiss to be cheap on bike24 (Mavic too, but they don't sell to US). They also all have eyelets. I determined my riding is mostly ASTM Class 2 (maybe 3 if i include potholes). for my 2" tires i need 20-25 mm. the X 392 are ASTM 2 and weigh 440 g at 20mm internal width. but the M442 may be better (ASTM 3, 22.5 mm and 50 g heavier). both are about $40.

This should get me to about $230 give or take (excluding tires)

I have all tools (dishing, tension meter, truing stand) and have trued (and corrected) some wheels with them. I read Zinn's Mountain Bike book (wheelbuilding section), read Mike T's and Sheldon's wheelbuilding sites. i also just bought Roger Musson's wheelbuilding book.

I know durable, cheap and light doesn't work, but if there is a way to optimize let me know. This won't be my last wheelset, and not my last bicycle. but still want it to be "good".

Last edited by HerrKaLeun; 03-26-18 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 03-26-18, 04:01 PM
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Sounds good. Comments:
  • As always, you should be able to get away with lighter rims and fewer spokes on the front wheel.
  • Double-butted spokes: always better than single-butted, both in terms of weight and longevity
  • Brass nipples - yes
  • A Shimano XT hub will always practically outlast any cartridge-bearing hub, no matter how much you pay.
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Old 03-26-18, 06:46 PM
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My only comment is that I would not limit my search to sealed bearing hubs. Good ball bearing hubs can last a long, long time. I am still riding on some early 80s Record hubs, and I have discovered that cheap Normandy hubs are surprisingly durable as well.

As for rims, I use Mavic and Velocity for my clincher rims. I stick with 36 or 32 spokes just to be conservative. I like DT spokes also.
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Old 03-26-18, 10:43 PM
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Although the cheapest hubs are cup and cone, good cup and cone hubs are better than cartridge bearing hubs. Cartridge bearings are a dodgy shortcut in a hub; they're rarely angular contact and they almost never have sealing as good as the XT hubs you're considering. Contamination kills cartridge bearings but is easily remedied on loose ball hubs if you get to it in time. Proper adjustment matters a lot, and part of the bad rep of loose ball hubs is down to the fact they're usually too tight from the factory and often not adjusted by the shop, causing premature failure.

28h and the light rim on the front, maybe use the heavier rim on the back.

Jobst Brandt's wheelbuilding book is the gold standard.
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Old 03-26-18, 11:00 PM
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That all sounds reasonable to be honest. To save much weight you'd have to spend a fair more on hubs. Good Shimano hubs last a long time if reasonably maintained.
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Old 03-26-18, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun
I'm building my first wheel set for my Giant Toughroad. Main motivation is I want to try out all my new wheel tools and want to go tubeless (and the Giant rims my bike came with may or may not be tubeless, but don't want fuss). and i can re-use the giant wheels on a project bike. I also want to see how economical one can build a good wheel.

I realize the first wheel is not the best one ever and I try to stay economical. the Toughroad has 100/135mm QR. My weight is 190# (geared up inc. 3 l water, some food etc.). Riding will be pavements, unpaved paths and maybe some single track (but just to ride through, not actual action). We have big potholes. i have wand will keep using 2" tires (will get new official tubeless ones)

Hubs: i prefer cartridge bearing, but for brand names (forget about novatec) that would mean spending a lot. so i narrowed it down to shimano XT ($70 for both at CRC). they had some additional seals compared to lower end shimano hubs. That is the part I'm not 100% happy with, but really good cartridge bearing hubs seem to be close to $200 the pair (QR seems to fall out of favor anyway). If you have better suggestions, please.

Spokes: DT Swiss double-butted, 32 in each wheel. Not sure if 28 in front wheel would be good. about $1 from bike24 (if you are not logged in, prices show with Value added tax, which doesn't apply to US shipment). will use brass nipples.

Rims: I found DT Swiss to be cheap on bike24 (Mavic too, but they don't sell to US). They also all have eyelets. I determined my riding is mostly ASTM Class 2 (maybe 3 if i include potholes). for my 2" tires i need 20-25 mm. the X 392 are ASTM 2 and weigh 440 g at 20mm internal width. but the M442 may be better (ASTM 3, 22.5 mm and 50 g heavier). both are about $40.

This should get me to about $230 give or take (excluding tires)

I have all tools (dishing, tension meter, truing stand) and have trued (and corrected) some wheels with them. I read Zinn's Mountain Bike book (wheelbuilding section), read Mike T's and Sheldon's wheelbuilding sites. i also just bought Roger Musson's wheelbuilding book.

I know durable, cheap and light doesn't work, but if there is a way to optimize let me know. This won't be my last wheelset, and not my last bicycle. but still want it to be "good".

I like what you are doing, you are about 6 months ahead of me, as I will be building my own wheels just like you towards the end of this year and have been pondering these issues too.


Both of those DT Swiss rims you mention, have a recommended weight limit of 110kgs.


This DT Swiss rim has a recommended weight limit of 130kgs. --> DT Swiss R 500 db Cross Road , weighs the same as the M442 and is only 27.65 Euro. The only downside I can see is that it comes without eyelets.


For spokes, on the rear I would go for DT Swiss Alpine III Spokes 2,0/1,8/2,34 - silver , but if you want black spokes, B24 doesn't seem to offer them beyond 270mm in length(Not sure if that is a glitch in their system or not).


You have to go to DT Swiss' site to get an idea of the weight comparison between their double butted 2.0/1.8 spokes and the Alpine III.


64 of the Alpine III's @264mm weighs 418grams
64 of the Competition's @264mm weighs 311grams


Of course you would only need 32, not 64 spokes for a rear wheel.
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Old 03-27-18, 12:02 AM
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If you were thinking of lights what about an SP dynamo front hub, they were Eu64 from bike-components in Germany. Then a little AXA headlight and tail light.

And yeah, that xt hub will last for years
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Old 03-27-18, 10:41 AM
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weight weenies may be focused on a wheel not up to the harsh use the bike was built to deal with..

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/toughroad-slr-1



If importing from Germany , Schmidt dyno-hubs have , in my experience , more secure electrical connections ..
[ Have a 32 hole disc front hub of theirs , built 3 cross.. ]

than the Asian companies chose to use.. SP, Shimano, Sturmey Archer, Sanyo..







....

Last edited by fietsbob; 03-27-18 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 03-27-18, 04:08 PM
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I read the design part of the Roger Musson's wheel building book. Really worth it and highly recommended. Especially since it is fairly up to date with newer material technology etc.

Originally Posted by Aubergine
My only comment is that I would not limit my search to sealed bearing hubs. Good ball bearing hubs can last a long, long time. I am still riding on some early 80s Record hubs, and I have discovered that cheap Normandy hubs are surprisingly durable as well.

As for rims, I use Mavic and Velocity for my clincher rims. I stick with 36 or 32 spokes just to be conservative. I like DT spokes also.
My motivation for cartridge was to not have to maintain until I replace bearings. But cup-cone also is fine (I fiddle with the bike all the time anyway)

Originally Posted by Kimmo
Although the cheapest hubs are cup and cone, good cup and cone hubs are better than cartridge bearing hubs. Cartridge bearings are a dodgy shortcut in a hub; they're rarely angular contact and they almost never have sealing as good as the XT hubs you're considering. Contamination kills cartridge bearings but is easily remedied on loose ball hubs if you get to it in time. Proper adjustment matters a lot, and part of the bad rep of loose ball hubs is down to the fact they're usually too tight from the factory and often not adjusted by the shop, causing premature failure.

28h and the light rim on the front, maybe use the heavier rim on the back.

Jobst Brandt's wheelbuilding book is the gold standard.
Musson seems to think 28-spoke wheels can be good, but doesn't advocate to use fewer spokes in front since at braking all weight shifts forward. i guess keeping it the same may be good, Ont he other hand going 32r/28f also may work.

Originally Posted by ColonelSanders
I like what you are doing, you are about 6 months ahead of me, as I will be building my own wheels just like you towards the end of this year and have been pondering these issues too.


Both of those DT Swiss rims you mention, have a recommended weight limit of 110kgs.


This DT Swiss rim has a recommended weight limit of 130kgs. --> DT Swiss R 500 db Cross Road , weighs the same as the M442 and is only 27.65 Euro. The only downside I can see is that it comes without eyelets.


For spokes, on the rear I would go for DT Swiss Alpine III Spokes 2,0/1,8/2,34 - silver , but if you want black spokes, B24 doesn't seem to offer them beyond 270mm in length(Not sure if that is a glitch in their system or not).


You have to go to DT Swiss' site to get an idea of the weight comparison between their double butted 2.0/1.8 spokes and the Alpine III.


64 of the Alpine III's @264mm weighs 418grams
64 of the Competition's @264mm weighs 311grams


Of course you would only need 32, not 64 spokes for a rear wheel.
I ignored road rims, but will look more into those. My take was I estimate my use is ASTM 2, to be conservative i use ASTM 3 wheels. Musson seems to think eyelets or not doesn't matter since brand name manufacturer build the wheel to the standard they claim. If manufacturer doesn't use eyelets, they don't need them. however, all MTB labelled DT Swiss rims have eyelets. He also says modern spoke material doesn't brake at hub, so triple-butted is not necessary. With my weight and usage, I think I stay with double-butted

Originally Posted by Trevtassie
If you were thinking of lights what about an SP dynamo front hub, they were Eu64 from bike-components in Germany. Then a little AXA headlight and tail light.

And yeah, that xt hub will last for years
Good ides, I'd like to have a system battery that i charge downhill or when riding is easy to power my lights. but the dynamos often only have 1.5W, hard to charge a battery (and powerful LED lights probably use 10+ w at high settings). not sure there is some pre-made equipment needed besides the hub.

Originally Posted by fietsbob
weight weenies may be focused on a wheel not up to the harsh use the bike was built to deal with..

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/toughroad-slr-1

If importing from Germany , Schmidt dyno-hubs have , in my experience , more secure electrical connections ..
[ Have a 32 hole disc front hub of theirs , built 3 cross.. ]

than the Asian companies chose to use.. SP, Shimano, Sturmey Archer, Sanyo..
....
I want light, strong and cheap!
Yeah I'll ignore weight a bit and go for a bit stronger and may stay with 32 spokes.

I looked at the Schmidt dynamos and they look good. will research a bit more. But they seem to be designed to direct-power a light. with the advances in LED I'm afraid to lock myself into a 2018 LEd light and in 2022 there are much better ones. Will research more, but thanks for the tip.

I'm doing more research on other things (this wheel built is part of an idea to built a bike for my wife, move over wheels and drivetrain also get myself a 1x drivetrain, but also want to see what Seaotter brings since building a new rear wheel locks me into a standard HG drivetrain)
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Old 03-27-18, 04:17 PM
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Have the Prior Schmidt eDelux 1, on 2 bikes , it works fine, they make a version 2, now, but I personally am fine with what I have..

output standard 6v,3w is just the same as it was 40 years ago.. bulb days .. front 2.4w, rear 0.6w = 3w load.
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Old 03-27-18, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
Have the Prior Schmidt eDelux 1, on 2 bikes , it works fine, they make a version 2, now, but I personally am fine with what I have..

output standard 6v,3w is just the same as it was 40 years ago.. bulb days .. front 2.4w, rear 0.6w = 3w load.
yeah those hubs start at over $200 on bike24. and that is without the light. I probably will postpone that idea. I don't ride a lot in the dark.
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Old 03-27-18, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun
I don't ride a lot in the dark.
I didn't used to, but I do a lot more now that it's convenient.
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Old 03-27-18, 11:01 PM
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The Son is really expensive, the SP is 1/3 the price but not 1/3 the quality. As are AXA lights. I have Son, SP and Shimano hubs. Riding I can't tell the difference.
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Old 03-30-18, 09:58 AM
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I though a bit about the dynamo and even went into the rabbit hole at the "long distance randoneuring" forum. but my night use will be just a few hours max and i can bring a lot of 18650 batteries for the cost of a dynamo hub. I also couldn't move the, really expensive, hub to a new bike (assuming new bike won't be QR). I also don't think the 3w make a huge dent in my power consumption, I rather take a power pack for my phone. I don't do overnight tours.

But the rear hub is holding me back for now since i also plan a possible drivetrain upgrade from my 2x10. either to 1x11 or 1x12. I'm not sure if i want to go to xD driver, or with HG... and rumour has it shimano will introduce their own hub for 10T cogs at Seaotter in april. At minimum i hope 1x12 will get cheaper then. So at least I'll wait till then to see how things shake out. If i stay with HG, i think the above XT hubs are really good for the $.

I think I'm pretty good on the rims and spokes. Thanks for the information. Double-butted 2.0-1.8-2.0 for the spokes with brass nipples. And a 22.5 wide or even 25mm wide DT Swiss rim (i like comfort!), likely an MTB rim rated for ASTM 3.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in.

I just ordered my tubeless tires (2" Schwalbe Almotion) and will see if my current rims can work tubeless (and it keeps me busy till SeaOtter to see what shimano brings for 1x12 lol)
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Old 08-06-18, 05:11 AM
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I actually build the wheel following the Professional Guide to Wheel Building. My freehub made made the cassette wobble laterally a bit and gave me final motivation.

Hub: Shimano Deore Centerlock. This is it is the cheapest shimano hub with all the seals. I also wanted to get away from the 6-bolt rotors, centerlock is just better. Bought from bike 24.I'm fine with cup/cone for the price. would have preferred a cartridge bearing hub. But the options for 135mm QR are thin if you want quality (i.e. DT Swiss etc.) and a good brand hub would have cost more than the whole wheel. I'm a bit nervous about cheap freehub ratchet mechanisms.
Rim: DT Swiss 462 with 25mm internal width (from 19mm of OEM rims). Measured ERD was exactly as advertised, BTW. Bought from bike 24. The shimano data were correct, but confusing on their website and I had to measure in hand to calculate spoke length. It is ASTM Class 3 rated for 120 kg..... My use case on a hybrid is much less severe. I went for the wider rim for better comfort and rolling resistance.
Nipples: Sapim Brass (just happened to be cheaper than DT Swiss)
Spokes: 32 DT Swiss Competition double-butted 2.0/1.8/2.0. Bought from ebay since that was the cheapest place and gave em the option to buy the exact number i needed. Also needed to buy separately to measure hub/rim by hand before calculating spoke length. I was surprised NDS spokes were only 2mm longer than DS. but the rotor mount makes the dish a bit more even.

My 2" Schwalbe Marathon tires are now 50 mm wide compared to 46mm on the narrower OEM rims at same pressure. The new wheel is 110 g lighter than the OEM. This is measured with rimtape, tubeless valve and rotor since I didn't disassemble my old wheel. Pretty good considering the new rim is wider and should be heavier.

Everything went fine, took me some hours to complete. Very true and very similar tension on all drive side spokes. I didn't go exactly to Roger Musson's recommendation to have lateral trueness at 0.2mm and radial trueness at 0.5mm. I got to the point that it was very hard to see the gaps (who measures 0.2mm???). Dish is at 1mm or less (as he recommends). and any truer wheel would have made tension uneven. I used the tension meter and I'm within +/- 1 of the units the tool shows. I decided with disc brakes I can chose even tension over actual trueness. But I'm definitely way under 1mm un-trueness.

I highly recommend wheel building to anyone with ability and will to fix the bike. I had bought truing stand, dishing tool etc. for maintenance anyway. Sure, a machine built wheel is cheaper, but has lesser components even if i assume it is built well. This wheel cost me about $120 or so. A Shimano rear wheel would have cost $85. But that only has 28-straight spokes and a unnamed Shimano hub (likely not to Deore standard) and narrower rim. For just $50 more I have an overall stronger wheel with better hub.Other machine wheels are even worse since they have uneven lacing patterns, with multiple spoke lengths making repairs nearly impossible (and probably more likely).

Thanks to everyone who advised.

Last edited by HerrKaLeun; 08-06-18 at 05:20 AM.
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