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Cassette Extender Compatibility

Old 06-04-18, 08:51 AM
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MrRider
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Cassette Extender Compatibility

Can non-Shimano cassettes, such as the Sunshine 11-42T, be extended to 50T using a cassette extender such as:Garbaruk Xtender for Shimano XT 11-speed Cassettes, or, the OneUp Xtender for Shimano XT 11-speed?


What is the reason they would only be compatible with Shimano cassettes? The Sunshine 11-42T has the same-tooth cogs as the Shimano 11-42T cassette, namely 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36-42. So why then can Shimano XT cassettes only be extended using cassette extension products?

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/garbar...view-2016.html
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Old 06-04-18, 09:06 AM
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Did you read the description of the extender? It says "The Garbaruk Shimano Xtender has an aluminum spider with steel cogs, and is a direct replacement for the three-cog segment of Shimano's 11-speed M8000 XT cassettes". So if your largest 3 cogs are loose, or on a common spider, then yes you can use the extender. Is your RD rated for a 50T cog? But $120 for 3 cogs. Oh well people can do whatever they want with their money.
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Old 06-04-18, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84 View Post
Did you read the description of the extender? It says "The Garbaruk Shimano Xtender has an aluminum spider with steel cogs, and is a direct replacement for the three-cog segment of Shimano's 11-speed M8000 XT cassettes". So if your largest 3 cogs are loose, or on a common spider, then yes you can use the extender. Is your RD rated for a 50T cog? But $120 for 3 cogs. Oh well people can do whatever they want with their money.
No need to be arrogant. I read the product description but am completely new to bike mechanics and cassettes so am not sure I miss something, as the product descriptions don't say compatible with other brands, just Shimano. I understand that if the biggest three cogs can be replaced that it should be ok from that perspective. So no other reasons why non-Shimano cassettes can't be used if that particular criteria is met? Good, thanks.
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Old 06-04-18, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by MrRider View Post
No need to be arrogant. I read the product description but am completely new to bike mechanics and cassettes so am not sure I miss something, as the product descriptions don't say compatible with other brands, just Shimano. I understand that if the biggest three cogs can be replaced that it should be ok from that perspective. So no other reasons why non-Shimano cassettes can't be used if that particular criteria is met? Good, thanks.
Well, Campagnolo cassettes/cogs have a different spline arrangement so they won't work.
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Old 06-04-18, 11:16 AM
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First, I don't see anything that says "for Shimano", I see it is for XT cassettes. I'd don't have an XT cassette in front of me, but they last three cogs might not be flush to the previous eight, and the spline might extend under them. So it may not work with a regular loose cog cassette.

Second, if it did say "Shimano", that might just be referring to the format, since there are currently only two spline formats - Campy and Shimano, even though SRAM and other companies make stuff that is compatible. But again, where does anything say it works with more than just XT cassettes?

Three, this product does not appear to be available from the manufacturer.
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Old 06-04-18, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
First, I don't see anything that says "for Shimano", I see it is for XT cassettes. I'd don't have an XT cassette in front of me, but they last three cogs might not be flush to the previous eight, and the spline might extend under them. So it may not work with a regular loose cog cassette.

Second, if it did say "Shimano", that might just be referring to the format, since there are currently only two spline formats - Campy and Shimano, even though SRAM and other companies make stuff that is compatible. But again, where does anything say it works with more than just XT cassettes?

Three, this product does not appear to be available from the manufacturer.
The Garburuk Xtender does seem to be discontinued. Where does it say "for Shimano XT"? Both in the title of the review "

Garbaruk Xtender for Shimano XT 11-speed Cassettes,

as well as several times in the article. The OneUp also states just for Shimano "Only compatible with Shimano 11-42T".
https://www.oneupcomponents.com/prod...ocket-18t-1x11

although I'm not quite sure why if the format of another cassette is the same and they're using the same freehub. Maybe it's as you say in your first point.
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Old 06-04-18, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
Well, Campagnolo cassettes/cogs have a different spline arrangement so they won't work.
Yes it certainly wouldn't work with campag, OneUp also says not compatible with SRAM drivetrains.
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Old 06-04-18, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MrRider View Post
The Garburuk Xtender does seem to be discontinued. Where does it say "for Shimano XT"? Both in the title of the review "

Garbaruk Xtender for Shimano XT 11-speed Cassettes,

as well as several times in the article. The OneUp also states just for Shimano "Only compatible with Shimano 11-42T".
https://www.oneupcomponents.com/prod...ocket-18t-1x11

although I'm not quite sure why if the format of another cassette is the same and they're using the same freehub. Maybe it's as you say in your first point.
The Oneup listing says that it is only for the M7000 or M8000 11-42 cassettes, not all Shimano cassettes.
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Old 06-04-18, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
Well, Campagnolo cassettes/cogs have a different spline arrangement so they won't work.
Originally Posted by MrRider View Post
Yes it certainly wouldn't work with campag, OneUp also says not compatible with SRAM drivetrains.
Well, certainly not compatible with SRAM XD.

Does SRAM use a type of a common carrier on many of their larger cassettes that use a standard Shimano style freehub?

This technically would work with some cheaper riveted cassettes (with removing the rivets).

One additional issue is that the shift gates should be lined up with the Shimano shift gates to improve shifting. It may not be a big deal for tight gearing, but may help some with big jumps of several teeth.
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Old 06-04-18, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
The Oneup listing says that it is only for the M7000 or M8000 11-42 cassettes, not all Shimano cassettes.
True, for formatting reason you can only extend with 11-40 or 11-42 cassettes. I was wishing to know if I could eventually extended a Sunshine 11-42 cassette to 50T cassette. I'll have the cassette in my hand tomorrow, but I know the formatting is the same as the Shimano 11-42.
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Old 06-04-18, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MrRider View Post
True, for formatting reason you can only extend with 11-40 or 11-42 cassettes. I was wishing to know if I could eventually extended a Sunshine 11-42 cassette to 50T cassette. I'll have the cassette in my hand tomorrow, but I know the formatting is the same as the Shimano 11-42.
Since it specifically says that it is only for the M7000 and M8000 cassettes, I think it is fair to assume that it isn't for other cassettes.

If you want one, buy it and then see what will work. You can always return the Sunshine if it doesn't have enough internal clearance. But I wouldn't expect anyone to be able to tell you beforehand unless they've already done it. The internal construction of cassettes varies, and the Sunrace may be more like the SRAM than the Shimano in the way that matters.
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Old 06-04-18, 02:02 PM
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I advise against cassette extenders. They usually shift like trash both because they transition to the other cogs poorly and they run the derailleur out of design spec. If you really want a very wide range cassette on a standard freehub for 11sp, Sunrace makes an 11-50. Their other cassettes shift well so I'd guess it would too, aside from pushing the design of the derailleur.
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Old 06-04-18, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cpach View Post
I advise against cassette extenders. They usually shift like trash both because they transition to the other cogs poorly and they run the derailleur out of design spec. If you really want a very wide range cassette on a standard freehub for 11sp, Sunrace makes an 11-50. Their other cassettes shift well so I'd guess it would too, aside from pushing the design of the derailleur.
That's interesting. For a dedicated 50T cassette, even if you have a long-cage (SGS) XT Shadow RD, wouldn't you still have to extend the cage (arms) with similar arms like they sell in these extender kits, as the best long cage mtb RD only provides for 46T? With those kits, it's not just the cogs you're needing, but the longer RD arms too, none of the production RDs come stock to deal with 50T, as far as I'm aware. What do folks who buy the Sunrace 11-50T do, buy separate arms for their SGS RD?
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Old 06-04-18, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Since it specifically says that it is only for the M7000 and M8000 cassettes, I think it is fair to assume that it isn't for other cassettes.

If you want one, buy it and then see what will work. You can always return the Sunshine if it doesn't have enough internal clearance. But I wouldn't expect anyone to be able to tell you beforehand unless they've already done it. The internal construction of cassettes varies, and the Sunrace may be more like the SRAM than the Shimano in the way that matters.
I think you are right. The Sunshine cassette is tied together in a cluster from 15-42, with the 13 and 11 loose. So I'm assuming every other 11-40/42 cassette is bolted together differently to the M7000 and M8000 cassettes, so can't be married from that perspective, just as EggMan surmised.
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Old 06-04-18, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MrRider View Post
No need to be arrogant. I read the product description but am completely new to bike mechanics and cassettes so am not sure I miss something, as the product descriptions don't say compatible with other brands, just Shimano. I understand that if the biggest three cogs can be replaced that it should be ok from that perspective. So no other reasons why non-Shimano cassettes can't be used if that particular criteria is met? Good, thanks.
Sorry about the snark. The marketing literature would seem to imply it would be compatible, but the recent explosion in standards can render what someone thinks any easy job impossible. Good luck.
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Old 06-05-18, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84 View Post
Did you read the description of the extender? It says "The Garbaruk Shimano Xtender has an aluminum spider with steel cogs, and is a direct replacement for the three-cog segment of Shimano's 11-speed M8000 XT cassettes". So if your largest 3 cogs are loose, or on a common spider, then yes you can use the extender. Is your RD rated for a 50T cog? But $120 for 3 cogs. Oh well people can do whatever they want with their money.
I think you're wrong. You're assuming that the three cog base is the same width as three cogs, and that the manufacturer wants to lose business by insisting on only using those two cassettes.

So I think it is funny that you asked if the OP read the description.
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Old 06-05-18, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84 View Post
Sorry about the snark. The marketing literature would seem to imply it would be compatible, but the recent explosion in standards can render what someone thinks any easy job impossible. Good luck.
No problem, and thanks. Lots of screen time can get to anyone's head. Yep it's a bloody minefield alright! I raced in the 80s as a kid but the old man did my mechanics. Now even he's confused by all the standards after stopping bikes since that time. But the other side to that is we now have many more options. I'd definitely prefer the options though, it's worth it. And at least we have the internet to assist with the increasing complexity, so in some ways it evens out.
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Old 06-05-18, 07:48 AM
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Just curious. What are you trying to accomplish?
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Old 06-05-18, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
Just curious. What are you trying to accomplish?
This is a conversion project from endurance disc road bike into an on/off-road bikepacking bike for a weak rider (due to illness). I'm small-gear proud.

The other conversion will be 650b wheels with 35mm hybrid tyres, or 26 inch wheels with 38mm hybrid tyres.

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Old 06-05-18, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
I think you're wrong. You're assuming that the three cog base is the same width as three cogs, and that the manufacturer wants to lose business by insisting on only using those two cassettes.

So I think it is funny that you asked if the OP read the description.
Please explain how I am wrong and I have no idea what you mean by "the manufacturer wants to lose business by insisting on only using those two cassettes"? What manufacturer and what cassettes?
But to give you credit, I believe you are correct. I don't run 11 speed but if I remember correctly, the largest 11 speed MTB cog "overhangs" the end of the freehub body. So the freehub body only has room for 10 cogs, with the 11th cog attached to the 10th and overhanging. Please correct me if I am wrong. Point me to a tech document to set me right (may help the OP also).
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Old 06-05-18, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84 View Post
Please explain how I am wrong and I have no idea what you mean by "the manufacturer wants to lose business by insisting on only using those two cassettes"? What manufacturer and what cassettes?
But to give you credit, I believe you are correct. I don't run 11 speed but if I remember correctly, the largest 11 speed MTB cog "overhangs" the end of the freehub body. So the freehub body only has room for 10 cogs, with the 11th cog attached to the 10th and overhanging. Please correct me if I am wrong. Point me to a tech document to set me right (may help the OP also).
If OneUp, the company that makes the Extenders, wanted to sell as many extenders as possible, why would they unnecessarily limit their product for use with only the Shimano M7000 and M8000 cassettes if the Extender worked with more than those two?

Limiting the Extender to just two possible cassette models suggests that there is a concrete, mechanical reason for doing so.
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Old 06-05-18, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84 View Post
Please explain how I am wrong and I have no idea what you mean by "the manufacturer wants to lose business by insisting on only using those two cassettes"? What manufacturer and what cassettes?
But to give you credit, I believe you are correct. I don't run 11 speed but if I remember correctly, the largest 11 speed MTB cog "overhangs" the end of the freehub body. So the freehub body only has room for 10 cogs, with the 11th cog attached to the 10th and overhanging. Please correct me if I am wrong. Point me to a tech document to set me right (may help the OP also).
I've been watching some mtb cassette installations, mainly onto road bikes, and I don't think the 11 cog overhangs the freehub with any mtb cassettes. From what I understand, the 11 speed cassette is the same width as the 10 speed cassettes and they accomplish that by making the 11 speed cogs thinner. Maybe I've interpreted something wrong but that's what I think's happening.

With the SRAM XD Driver that you need for a 10 tooth cog, the 10 tooth cog is still not overhanging, but it is floating around the end of the hub which has narrowed towards the end. For that reason, it also accepts a 9 tooth cog. The first couple of big cogs are placed on a spline of normal dimensions, but that's it, the rest of the hub gets narrower and is different. The lockring goes right through the first several smallest cogs and stops at that bit where the spline is of short but otherwise normal dimensions. It's quite a technical marvel!
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Old 06-06-18, 01:10 PM
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[QUOTE=MrRider;20378565]I've been watching some mtb cassette installations, mainly onto road bikes, and I don't think the 11 cog overhangs the freehub with any mtb cassettes. From what I understand, the 11 speed cassette is the same width as the 10 speed cassettes and they accomplish that by making the 11 speed cogs thinner. Maybe I've interpreted something wrong but that's what I think's happening./QUOTE]

I think we are all confused at this point. Rear hub compatibility is discussed at Bicycle rear hub compatibilitybut it still left me confused as to your original question. When Shimano went to 11 speed, did they make the overall stack thickness of the road and MTB casettes different? Or is it just a function of the hubs since road is typically 130mm OLD and MTB is/was 135mm OLD? Can't wait until the manufacturers start using the just announced Shimano 12 speed stuff, with the new freehub. Ouch!!
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Old 06-06-18, 01:46 PM
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[quote=Eggman84;20380268]
Originally Posted by MrRider View Post
I've been watching some mtb cassette installations, mainly onto road bikes, and I don't think the 11 cog overhangs the freehub with any mtb cassettes. From what I understand, the 11 speed cassette is the same width as the 10 speed cassettes and they accomplish that by making the 11 speed cogs thinner. Maybe I've interpreted something wrong but that's what I think's happening./QUOTE]

I think we are all confused at this point. Rear hub compatibility is discussed at Bicycle rear hub compatibilitybut it still left me confused as to your original question. When Shimano went to 11 speed, did they make the overall stack thickness of the road and MTB casettes different? Or is it just a function of the hubs since road is typically 130mm OLD and MTB is/was 135mm OLD? Can't wait until the manufacturers start using the just announced Shimano 12 speed stuff, with the new freehub. Ouch!!
It's pretty much all Chinese to me. I did a search looking for information on hubs earlier today and there's precious little generalist tutorials.

A mountain biker told me yesterday the current standard for most mtb hubs is 142 x 12, and that that standard is crossing over to road.

There was this hub tutorial:
, but it's not that comprehensive. I learnt though that the length of the hub ie 135mm is end of axle to end of axle, and that the different lengths are not usually due to different freehub lengths, but due to different widths between the flanges (where the spokes lace into). That results in some wheels being spoked on more of an angle between flange and rim for different wheel strengths. The greater the angle of the spokes, the stronger. That's really all I know at the moment lol. So if you get a 150mm hub and a 135mm hub, I think they'll both have the same freehub dimensions, but different width between the flanges, oh and also can be some differences with the axle-end lengths too.

Actually I think that the stack of an 11 speed cassette might be slightly more than the 10 even though the cogs are a little thinner, but they go on the same hub as with a 10 speed cassette you use a spacer before the large cog to fill the space. And perhaps an even bigger spacer if using 9 speed.
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Old 06-06-18, 04:44 PM
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Shimano 11 speed freehub bodies and cassettes are 1.85mm wider than the 8/9/10 speed freehub.
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