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Is this classed as a "Horizontal dropout"?

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Is this classed as a "Horizontal dropout"?

Old 07-30-22, 04:54 AM
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bikethis
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Is this classed as a "Horizontal dropout"?

So I have this Raleigh bike and to me these dropouts look horizontal, but they are slightly slanted. What would these be classed as?

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Old 07-30-22, 05:29 AM
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Yes, that would be a "horizontal" dropout.

N.B. the quick release in your picture is intended to be used with vertical dropouts and may not clamp firmly enough to prevent the wheel from pulling out of alignment on a horizontal dropout. Consider replacing it with a traditional enclosed-cam quick release.
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Old 07-30-22, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Yes, that would be a "horizontal" dropout.

N.B. the quick release in your picture is intended to be used with vertical dropouts and may not clamp firmly enough to prevent the wheel from pulling out of alignment on a horizontal dropout. Consider replacing it with a traditional enclosed-cam quick release.
How can you tell they're not designed for horizontal dropouts?
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Old 07-30-22, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bikethis View Post
How can you tell they're not designed for horizontal dropouts?
As he stated, it doesn't have an enclosed cam😉. To answer your next question: Google it.
Congrats on the new bike. What model?
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Old 07-30-22, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bikethis View Post
How can you tell they're not designed for horizontal dropouts?
​​​​​​https://www.sheldonbrown.com/skewers...left%20dropout.
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Old 07-30-22, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by stevel610 View Post
As he stated, it doesn't have an enclosed cam😉. To answer your next question: Google it.
Congrats on the new bike. What model?
It's a Raleigh Maxim Ogre that I got for 10
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Old 07-30-22, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bikethis View Post
So I have this Raleigh bike and to me these dropouts look horizontal, but they are slightly slanted. What would these be classed as?

As others have said, that's indeed a horizontal dropout. It looks to be the short version; can't tell if it's stamped or forged from the photo.

The late Sheldon Brown's website has a page with an explanation of the various dropouts and an excellent diagram showing the differences between them. The diagram is found not quite halfway thru this page:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/no-derailers.html.

For the reasons noted in the other Sheldon Brown page cited above, you really should use an enclosed-cam skewer with that type of dropout.
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Old 07-30-22, 08:17 AM
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I’d add that having the lever in the position shown in the photo increases the risk of it being inadvertently flipped open if caught on something while riding!
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Old 07-30-22, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
Thanks for this, very interesting read!
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Old 07-30-22, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sovende View Post
Id add that having the lever in the position shown in the photo increases the risk of it being inadvertently flipped open if caught on something while riding!
Haha you're right! I'd guess just having it positoned exactly opposite to what it is now would be better?
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Old 07-30-22, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo6 View Post
As others have said, that's indeed a horizontal dropout. It looks to be the short version; can't tell if it's stamped or forged from the photo.

The late Sheldon Brown's website has a page with an explanation of the various dropouts and an excellent diagram showing the differences between them. The diagram is found not quite halfway thru this page:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/no-derailers.html.

For the reasons noted in the other Sheldon Brown page cited above, you really should use an enclosed-cam skewer with that type of dropout.
Thanks for the info!
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Old 07-31-22, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by sovende View Post
Id add that having the lever in the position shown in the photo increases the risk of it being inadvertently flipped open if caught on something while riding!

I will disagree with this statement. The most easily snagged position for a QR skewer lever to be at is when is points away from the stays/blades. For a front wheel this means pointing forwards or down. For a rear wheel down or rearwards. Having the skewer lever run parallel or slightly crossing the stay/blade reduces the ability for something to snag the lever as the frame acts as a guard of sorts. Additionally if a rear QR lever is positioned running rearwards the rider behind you might not like having their ft wheel trapped between yoiur lever and rear wheel when you slow down faster than they do and they overlap wheel with you.

I generally position the lever to run parallel to the blade or stay, just off enough to easily grab with you hand but not hanging out like a hook looking for it's fish. Andy
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Old 07-31-22, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
I will disagree with this statement. The most easily snagged position for a QR skewer lever to be at is when is points away from the stays/blades. For a front wheel this means pointing forwards or down. For a rear wheel down or rearwards. Having the skewer lever run parallel or slightly crossing the stay/blade reduces the ability for something to snag the lever as the frame acts as a guard of sorts. Additionally if a rear QR lever is positioned running rearwards the rider behind you might not like having their ft wheel trapped between yoiur lever and rear wheel when you slow down faster than they do and they overlap wheel with you.

I generally position the lever to run parallel to the blade or stay, just off enough to easily grab with you hand but not hanging out like a hook looking for it's fish. Andy
While I still believe that having the lever pointing to the rear is "best practice" (and I believe it's the way the designers intended), I can see some validity in your method IF the tip of the lever crosses the blade or the stay as that would offer some level of protection from a branch snagging the lever and popping it open. You lost me tho on your description of how the front wheel of a rider to the rear would somehow manage to wedge itself between the rear pointing QR lever and the rear wheel and pop the lever open. In a tight peloton of highly competitive riders, I would suppose the situation COULD present itself but for the majority of the rest of the cycling world, I doubt it. For the record, the position of the lever in the OP's photo does not seem to meet the description of how you describe the best method and I stand by my suggestion that it could be subject to being popped open if snagged by a branch! There's no need to start a "range war" over this issue so we may have to "agree to disagree"!
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Old 07-31-22, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bikethis View Post
How can you tell they're not designed for horizontal dropouts?
The larger radius of the open-cam design has less mechanical advantage than the traditional enclosed-cam design. The wheel can't shift out of position in a vertical dropout, so less mechanical advantage doesn't matter.
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Old 07-31-22, 05:10 PM
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Turns out the number one reason for through axles on new road bikes is people on Bike Forums saying, Your skewer is wrong. Its the wrong kind of skewer, the handle is pointed in the wrong direction, its on the wrong side of the bike, its too far back or forward, it looks like its open, just think what would happen if you were riding this very old ten speed bike in a peloton and had a crash but I dont need lawyer lips on my fork.

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Old 07-31-22, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sovende View Post
While I still believe that having the lever pointing to the rear is "best practice" (and I believe it's the way the designers intended), I can see some validity in your method IF the tip of the lever crosses the blade or the stay as that would offer some level of protection from a branch snagging the lever and popping it open. You lost me tho on your description of how the front wheel of a rider to the rear would somehow manage to wedge itself between the rear pointing QR lever and the rear wheel and pop the lever open. In a tight peloton of highly competitive riders, I would suppose the situation COULD present itself but for the majority of the rest of the cycling world, I doubt it. For the record, the position of the lever in the OP's photo does not seem to meet the description of how you describe the best method and I stand by my suggestion that it could be subject to being popped open if snagged by a branch! There's no need to start a "range war" over this issue so we may have to "agree to disagree"!
Actually it is more among the non pros that wheel overlapping, and the risk of that point rearward QR lever acting as a hook or latch, that is likely the greater concern. Any one who hasn't ridden up the backside of the rider who they were following (drafting if at speed) doesn't yet have that school of hard knocks pig skin. If the QR lever is pointing rearwards it will prevent the front wheel of the rider behind you from easily steering out and away from you. Generally the pros have had coaching and mentors to heed from, besides their pack riding skills are far more practiced. Gym strong locals, who think riding a trainer or spin bike is great training, are a whole 'nother issue with club packs.





Two shots of my station wagon bike QEs. The rear could be a few degrees more up and parallel to the chain stay. But I think my preference is shown well. Note that the skewers are steel and enclosed cams even though I built this frame with vertical drop outs. Also note the lack of front dropout retention lips. Only my disk braked bikes have them. Andy
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Old 07-31-22, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by sovende View Post
While I still believe that having the lever pointing to the rear is "best practice" (and I believe it's the way the designers intended), I can see some validity in your method IF the tip of the lever crosses the blade or the stay as that would offer some level of protection from a branch snagging the lever and popping it open.
I doubt that in the entire history of the quick release, a stray branch has never once opened a front-facing quick release.
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Old 07-31-22, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Actually it is more among the non pros that wheel overlapping, and the risk of that point rearward QR lever acting as a hook or latch, that is likely the greater concern. Any one who hasn't ridden up the backside of the rider who they were following (drafting if at speed) doesn't yet have that school of hard knocks pig skin. If the QR lever is pointing rearwards it will prevent the front wheel of the rider behind you from easily steering out and away from you. Generally the pros have had coaching and mentors to heed from, besides their pack riding skills are far more practiced. Gym strong locals, who think riding a trainer or spin bike is great training, are a whole 'nother issue with club packs.





Two shots of my station wagon bike QEs. The rear could be a few degrees more up and parallel to the chain stay. But I think my preference is shown well. Note that the skewers are steel and enclosed cams even though I built this frame with vertical drop outs. Also note the lack of front dropout retention lips. Only my disk braked bikes have them. Andy
I do almost this. Rotate both levers another 25? degrees clockwise so the front crosses the fork and the rear crosses the chainstay (leaving the lever to be grabbed between chain and seat stays). There are rear QRs and vertical dropout designs that don't allow the cross so on those I do as you do.
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Old 07-31-22, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
I doubt that in the entire history of the quick release, a stray branch has never once opened a front-facing quick release.
I bet it has happened. You'd be surprised what you see if you do not own a car, live where distances start at three miles and there is no public transportation. (And you live in a place of real weather.) I didn't own a car until my early 30s. I've ridden in storms more than a few times. I build and mount my front wheels inside spokes pulling because I fear that branch wedging between wheel and fork. Fallen branches have taken me down but so far, not by opening rear facing front QRs or jamming in my fork.
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Old 08-01-22, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
I bet it has happened. You'd be surprised what you see if you do not own a car, live where distances start at three miles and there is no public transportation. (And you live in a place of real weather.) I didn't own a car until my early 30s. I've ridden in storms more than a few times. I build and mount my front wheels inside spokes pulling because I fear that branch wedging between wheel and fork. Fallen branches have taken me down but so far, not by opening rear facing front QRs or jamming in my fork.
I think for 99.999999% of road cyclists, this is a completely irrational fear. Tradition and superstition pervades the sport, and often, people simply parrot what they have read, without thinking through the issue rationally.

I place my rear QR facing forward over the stay so I can use the stay for leverage, squeezing the stay and the lever together.
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Old 08-01-22, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
Turns out the number one reason for through axles on new road bikes is people on Bike Forums saying, Your skewer is wrong. Its the wrong kind of skewer, the handle is pointed in the wrong direction, its on the wrong side of the bike, its too far back or forward, it looks like its open, just think what would happen if you were riding this very old ten speed bike in a peloton and had a crash but I dont need lawyer lips on my fork.
Yeabut..... How about the thru axles that have the QR type of lever on them? Huh? Shoots your theory out of the water (meant facetiously of course)

Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Actually it is more among the non pros that wheel overlapping, and the risk of that point rearward QR lever acting as a hook or latch, that is likely the greater concern. Any one who hasn't ridden up the backside of the rider who they were following (drafting if at speed) doesn't yet have that school of hard knocks pig skin. If the QR lever is pointing rearwards it will prevent the front wheel of the rider behind you from easily steering out and away from you. Generally the pros have had coaching and mentors to heed from, besides their pack riding skills are far more practiced. Gym strong locals, who think riding a trainer or spin bike is great training, are a whole 'nother issue with club packs.





Two shots of my station wagon bike QEs. The rear could be a few degrees more up and parallel to the chain stay. But I think my preference is shown well. Note that the skewers are steel and enclosed cams even though I built this frame with vertical drop outs. Also note the lack of front dropout retention lips. Only my disk braked bikes have them. Andy
The front position (orange fork blades) is the way I've usually set my front lever since the 70s and it is the only correct way to do a front lever. Oh, I take that back. Sometimes I set the lever close to the fork angled upward, but just behind it. That can work with external cam levers, but usually with internal cam levers, the illustrated method works best. NEVER straight back, that's just not right!

For the rear lever, I've always set it in the triangle/V of the seat and chain stays, kind of "tucked" in there.

I guess I've always assumed that the tendency to set the levers horizontal and rearward came from mountain biking? I don't think I ever saw it on a road bike until MTB entered the scene?

But I'm an old guy who is, in regard to QR skewers, stuck in the way it was done in the 70s. Dumb, I know.
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Old 08-01-22, 01:17 PM
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After reading the last posts about quick release levers I think I will go check the ones on my bikes to see if I am doing things the right way
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Old 08-01-22, 06:59 PM
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Hi, 90s MTB guy here:

Generally, on a rigid, it wasnt a whole lot different than a road bike, but often wed run the front lever on the right, so you could put it vertically behind the fork blade. (Especially East-Coast woods bikes)

Rear QR would usually go inside the triangle, just above the chainstay, so the lever tip would be in the shadow of the frame tubes. Oversized chain stays and chunky dropouts sometimes prevents this, but straight back was usually the last resort; you dont want anything unnecessarily sticking out, in any direction.
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Old 08-01-22, 08:49 PM
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Ive personally seen a rear (external cam) QR shoved open mid ride. Exactly as described above. Two I experienced riders in close formation. Front one slowed suddenly for a car. Rear rider overlapped wheels and turned away to the left at the last minute. It swung open the rear QR of the rider in the front. Fortunately it was a vertical dropout bike, so nothing catastrophic happened. The front rider felt something off, and slowly came to a stop to fix the issue. This could also get a front QR that was forward facing, though you seldom see that.

Ive also seen a front QR open, though the bike was static. Bike parked at a bike rack. Someone else trying to force another bike into a not big enough space, and opened the backward facing front QR. Easy enough to find if you do a basic pre-ride check, but less so if you dont.

I put my front QR parallel to or just behind the fork as shown above, depending on QR type and handle shape. The rear I tuck between the stays.
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