Does your other leg squeak, too?

Now, the balls and stuff might be coated to prevent the steel from RUSTING!!

That must have been why the LBS mech smiled when I asked where I could get Krytox.
Expensive. Not much more expensive than old Campy grease, though.

No, one only one leg squeaks. The other one honks.

No, but I am a licensed Mechanical Engineer (not practicing) who recognized BS when he sees it.

Grease not becoming effective? What a load of crap. The purpose of grease is to reduce friction... period. The specs and additives and all the other hooey is intended to help it continue to do so in extreme environments. Grease designed for automotive use is still considered "all-purpose; unless you are using something really purpose specific like Lubri-Plate it just doesn't matter.

And, temperature resistance is not always related to viscosity, but you keep listening to "the experts";their jobs depend upon it.

That explains alot.

I like marine bearing grease... its waterproof and relatively low viscosity compared to your standard white lithium gunk, it seems.

I came across an article that refers to "grease plating". It doesn't say when/where this process is used. It doesn't look like anything that would be done to bicycle bearings. Here is a quote;
"A unique process of applying a thin film of grease to all bearing surfaces is by grease plating. The bearing is coated with a mixture of grease and solvents. The solvent is removed by heating, leaving a thin film of grease on all surfaces. Although there are limitations to this method, plating gives lower torque than a grease pack and retains the lubricant on bearing surfaces better than oil lubrication."
Here is the link;
https://www.bearings.machinedesign.co...emech6_44.aspx

"The solution to achieving low torque in precision ball bearings, without the problems generally associated with lubrication migration.

Micro Grade Grease Plate, known as MGGP, was developed by AST Bearings for those customers that require low torque bearings without the lubricant migration associated with oil lubrication.

MGGP lubricated bearings appear to have all internal surfaces spray painted with grease. All of the working surfaces, such as the balls, ball separators, and raceways, are coated with a thin film of grease that is sufficient for the life of the bearing. Many customers have taken advantage of bearings lubricated with the MGGP process for such applications as optical encoders, printers, brush type D.C. motors, video cameras, clutches/brakes as well as numerous military applications.

The MGGP process involves taking the candidate grease and mixing it with a volatile solvent and additional parts of the grease’s base oil (the amounts of each constituent are closely controlled), until it becomes the aproximate consistency of enamel paint. This mixture is then injected into the bearing. Next, the solvents are baked off at a low temperature, leaving the desired plating of the original grease. The thickness of the final plating can be very accurately controlled.

Most grease lubricants can be applied to precision ball bearings using the MGGP process. Check with one of our application engineers or customer service representatives for availability."

Oh pard me
Edit: now that i have read this thread & have noticed a many a grease Experts have chimed in..

Probably the power of 15 million bicycle users around the world who wouldn't have the faintest idea of what John Barnett or any of the grease/oil companies say, nor care... might convince you. They are the ones in China and India and various other places including Europe who get by very nicely without all this knowledge. And probably the many thousands of bicycle owners who do their own maintenance and have their bikes last a very long time.

As you can see, there are no experts in grease on this forum. There's an oil expert, maybe two. Likely, there are probably three or four people whom I would consider experts on bicycles who post here; but you even junk a mechanical engineer. It maybe that the rest of us non-experts like to learn and like to discuss and to relate their own experiences, so others might learn, not be dismissed with our views by "someone on a mission" to prove something that seems to me to be quite pointless.

I suppose that, since you brought up Barnett's Manual, you subscribe religiously to his methods of adjusting everyday, ordinary run-of-the-mill hub, BB and headset bearings? As a non-expert, I have done enough to know the preload on the bearings I adjust without a gauge, and they get along very well. Just like I will likely to continue use automotive grease in my bearings, and (shock-horror-lo and behold) motor oil on my chains. I might even break a Shimano chain and use the same pin to rejoin it. But I do all these things because I accept the risk of (a) failure and (b) reduced longevity. So far, neither have occurred in overwhelming or damaging quantities (the opposite in fact).

I understand that you are a professional bike mechanic. You have your training and you put your faith in Barnett's Manual. And it is all well and good because *you* have to take into account the legal requirements and commercial viability of servicing a customer's bike and what the manufacturers recommend as safe servicing -- and you probably have access to unlimited quantities of the highest possible quality bicycle grease and lubricants that are available; that's a luxury some of us can't afford (so cost IS a factor).

As to grease-plating -- look at the applications -- they are ALL micro-applications of some sort (even the clutches and brakes) and likely with sealed bearings, and certainly with design parameters to not have the oil from the grease spewing on things like electronics. The fact that you had to drill deep to find it suggests it is a very specialised application that would blow the smithereens out of prices for bicycle bearings (although they probably would be competitive with high-end ceramics, come to think of it).

It's interesting that that we have gone from major macro with Mercedes Benz front wheel bearings to micro bearings for miniature equipment. Maybe bicycle bearings fit in between somewhere, do you think? (oh and Hooligan, it seems neither leg squeaks... )

I think the thread information, on balance, although posted by non-experts seems to indicate that mixing of greases may not be appropriate because of the different chemical compositions of the base soap, and that the viscosity of that soap combined with the type of oil, will determine how much "sticky" there is in bearings. It's just like you don't mix oils -- synthetics don't go with naturals. But if push came to shove, I suggest it would take quite a long time to determine the breakdown in the lubricating value of a bicycle in an much less hostile environment than a car engine, transmission, or suspension.

And one thing I have definitely learned along the way is, though: There are absolutes in cycling... even Barnett's Manual and the types of grease that can be used.

I didn't mean that as an insult to anyone. I have seen some extremely technical posts by people in other threads (some chain lube threads come to mind) and asked for some insight on this topic because I am not an expert on grease. The reason I spend time on this forum is because I learn and this is a subject of interest to me. My "mission" on this thread was to learn and I did. I might not have approached very tactfully which I regret. Determining the best grease that is the most economical to use in my service department might seem "pointless" to you and it's your choice to dismiss me if you want, I'm not going to cry about it.

I do put a lot of stock in what John Barnett sais, yes. But when I read all the experiences about using automotive grease and it was in contrast to what I read in his manual I chose to question both. I'm sorry if you're offended by this, that was not my intention.

Because I am a bicycle mechanic the cost everything is a factor for me as well. I am well aware that some of my custsomers are on a budget. That is one reason why cheap automotive grease intrgued me. I'd love to pass on the savings but I also have to be concerned with quality.

That post was not in my defense. That was a follow up to Hooliater's post. It was something I learned about because of this discussion and thought others might be interested. I also posted it because others dismissed Hooliter and I thought he might like to know that his friend wasn't feeding him full of B.S.

Agreed.

John acknowledged as much to me. He sais that there are some types of automotive grease that can be used but that there are some that shouldn't be used. The problem is that I don't know which is which so, like you said, I would be accepting the risk if I were to use it on customers bikes.

Oh, a clever jab; I must write that down!

The reason you have not heard from any "grease experts" is that depth of knowledge is superfluous for bicycles. One of the greatest virtues of bicycles are their relatively simple nature; they do not involve high temperature, high pressures, high speeds... all the things that require more performance from lubrications.

Many very knowledgable shops use automotive grease for very good reason; it's economical and it works well.

If you wish to complicate a non-complicated issues be my guest.

O.k. Because I work at a bike shop I have a lot of spare time this time of year. This may not be perectly accurate but it's my best shot at understanding it.

Why use bicycle specific grease?

Why not buy a less expensive automotive grease for my bicycle hub bearings and save money? First we need to understand what grease is. Grease is an oil (synthetic or non-synthetic), a thickener (synthetic or non-synthetic), and an additive package.

The most important part of a grease is the viscosity of the oil. (ref. 10) A low viscosity oil is used to formulate a low temperature grease. A high viscosity oil is used to formulate a high temperature grease. (ref. 5) A bicycle is going to operate at a relatively low temperature. When selecting a grease for bicycle hub bearings you'll want a grease that is made from low viscosity oil. It doesn't need to be synthetic. The advantage of synthetics is that they work in wider temperature ranges than non-synthetics. They won't break down at high temps and won't solidify at low temps. Bicycles hub bearings don't experience these extremes so it's not worth the extra money.

Thickeners are three dimensional fibrous or crystalline structures commonly referred to as soaps. These thickeners act like sponges. They absorb the oil. When pressure is applied to the grease or the temperature rises, the thickener releases the oil. If the oil is not released it will not lubricate. When pressure is removed or the temperature drops, the thickener re-absorbs the oil. There are a few common thickeners that are rellavent to this discussion. They are Aluminum complex, Lithium complex, and polyurea (ref. 1, 4). Aluminum is used in marine applications. Lithium makes a great all purpose grease and is used in automotive greases. I have yet to find an automotive grease that doesn't use lithium or lithium complex as the thickener. Polyurea is the preferred thickener for use with ball bearings.(ref. 1, 3) Polyurea is synthetic and therefore more expensive to make. (ref. 4) A quote from ref. (3) "Polyurea grease has outstanding resistance to oxidation because it contains no metal soaps (which tend to invite oxidation). It effectively lubricates over a wide temperature range of -20 to 177 EC (-4 to 350 EF) and has long life. Water-resistance is good to excellent, depending on the grade. It works well with many elastomer seal materials. It is used with all types of bearings but has been particularly effective in ball bearings. Its durability makes it well suited for sealed-for-life bearing applications."

Here is a section of the Material safety Data Sheet for Park Tools Polylube 1000.

"PRODUCT TRADE NAME: PPL-1 / PPL-2
ALTERNATE NAME: PolyLube 1000 Lubricant
EFFECTIVE DATE: January 24, 2006 PAGE 1 of 2
SECTION 01 - HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS
INGREDIENT NAME CAS NUMBER %
DISTILLATES, PETROLEUM, HYDROTREATED HEAVY NAPTHENIC 64742-
DISTILLATES, PETROLEUM, SOLVENT-REFINED HEAVY PARAFFINIC.
POLYUREA THICKENER (PROPRIETARY INGREDIENT# 28277) PROPRIETARY 5-10

As we can see the Park Tool Bicycle Specific Grease uses polyurea as a thickener. This is good because polyurea is the best thickener that you can use on ball bearings which is what is used in bicycle hubs. Remember that automotive greases uses Lithium(complex) which is cheaper but not as well suited for ball bearings. The other ingredients listed, napthenic distillates, heavy refined paraffinic, and petroleum, are non-synthetic oils. This is good because we don't need to pay the higher prices for synthetic oils for use in bicycles. Napthenic oil has to be used for the initial manufacturing of the grease because it bleeds out. Paraffinic oil is used to thin the grease to the proper consistency. Napthenic oil is chosen for dilution because it exhibits less friction. As usual, there are no absolute truths. Paraffinic oil has advantages in some respects, while naphthenic oil has advantages in others. The question of whether to use naphthenic or paraffinic oil for dilution is, however, secondary if the grease is not available for lubrication. If the oil does not bleed out from the grease, then it does not give any lubricant effect at all. (ref. 9) So far in our analysis of Park Tool Polylube 1000 we can see that every aspect of it is specific to use in bicycle hubs.

Finally we come to we come to additives. Additives are best viewed as a package because each individual additive will effect the way the other additives, oil, and thickener work. It's at this point in my research that I became very familiar with term "industry trade secret".

So we can see that "bicycle specific grease" is not just a marketing ploy used to rip us all off. But the question still remains; "Aren't there any less expensive automotive greases that will work in my bicycle hubs?" The answer is yes. The concern is that they probably won't work as well. Another fact that remains is some automotive greases are not at all suited for use in bicycles and will have disastrous consequences. The problem is we don't know which ones these are until we try them. Considering how much a wheel set costs, I'm not willing to gamble on this matter.

1) https://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/HS/Jour...cSubscriber/V8 3N06/p862.pdf

2) https://www.engineersedge.com/lubrica...ies_grease.htm

3) https://www.usace.army.mil/publicatio...2-1424/c-5.pdf

4) https://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=0837

5) https://www.bestsynthetic.com/edu-grease.shtml

6) https://www.fammllc.com/famm/publicat...lletins_08.pdf

7) https://www.contentmart.com/ContentMa...D=29877&CatID=327&content=1


8) https://www.amstedrail.com/tech_sheets/9202.asp

9) https://www2.nynas.com/naph/start/art...=433&Sec_ID=55

10) https://www.machinerylubrication.com/...?articleid=798

Whew!

I suspect very strongly that more damage has been done by improper bearing adjustment than by using the "wrong" kind of grease.


I'm waiting to hear more about the "disasterous results"...

I agree about the adjustment causing more damage.

The disastrous result can only be one thing; damage to the bearing unit. It entirely possible that you and I have seen the disastrous result of using the wrong grease but didn't recognize it for what it was. On the other hand I have seen the result of using bicycle specific grease and good maintenence practices, the hubs last for many years and tens of thousands of miles. The problem is that I have no way of knowing if the "disastrous result" (bearing damage) that I do see are from the "wrong" grease or someting else. I have seen a lot of ruined hub bearings but I never know what grease was in them, how well they were adjusted, how long it was since their last re-pack, if there was moisture contamination, etc. The only anecdotal evidence of using the wrong grease (other than bearing and surface damage) that I have heard of is that the grease will get dry, the bearings will displace the grease (probably just the thickener without oil) to the side and the bearing will be running on a dry track.

Wrench-to-wrench, you know every one of those issues is usually the result of abuse or neglect, not the type of grease used.

I appreciate your efforts to learn more. I think you will find the real-world effects of various types of grease used in a properly maintained bicycle bearing will be negligible at best.

Of course, I'm not sitting out a Minnesota winter...

But also don't forget bearing and race quality in your equation.

Anyway, I aim to get over all this in future by using only sealed bearings... but, I just realised... most sealed bearings used on bicycles are the generic types used in car alternators, ceiling fans and various industrial electric motors and other applications... and they *don't* use bicycle-specific grease.

Sorry, Pete, I just had to point out that little tidbit. Maybe a quick email to Shimano to find out the type of grease they use in their sealed BB and wheel bearings might put the issue to rest.

(Of course, having said that, you'll probably get a reply along the lines of "we use on our sealed bearings grease plating, a patented Shimano process that we also use in fishing reels". I doubt it, though. )

Funny you should mention electric motor bearings. They kept coming up when I was researching polyurea grease (the same thing as Park Tool's bicycle specific grease). It turns out that polyurea grease is the grease of choice for electric motors. A quick google search for "polyurea grease" will turn up a bunch of links to electric motor sites. Maybe bicycle specific grease is just electric motor bearing grease repackaged.

"FAIRFAX, Va. - August 18, 2004 -- ExxonMobil today announced the introduction of Mobil Polyrex(R) EM polyurea grease, which is designed specifically to enhance the performance and reliability of electric motor bearings and ball or lightly loaded roller bearings operating at high temperatures."
https://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/454781

Hehehehe... somehow I thought that might be the case. You see, I cannot believe any bicycle parts manufacturer (except maybe Shimano and Campy) will put research and development dollars into a "special bicycle grease", especially when the grease is already being produced for other, non-bicycling applications.

It's just like many other moving, non-fashion/trendy parts on a bike -- the bits are sourced from companies that (a) specialise in producing those things such as bearings and (b) have the economics of scale to supply those at the cheap prices the bike makers want.

It's only when you go to a bearing wholesaler/retailer with a serial number and they say: "Yeah, we've got 'em in stock" that you realise all this. Even more sobering when you realise the same bearings are used in wheelchairs!

But the keys in the quoted bit from Mobil are: "specifically to enhance the performance of..." and "operating at high temperatures".

"Enhance" to me means improve over using ordinary lubricants, and likely means increase longevity; high temps puts us back with the front bearings on the Mercedes Benz

On another forum (a long-distance one, or it might have even been here), a guy who had been in the lubricants industry for many years posted something along the lines that the only differentiation between oils (grease wasn't the specific issue at that time) was in the additives. He concluded by saying he used synthetic motor oil on his chains. Sorta blew the "use bike lubricants only for bikes" idea out of the water.

The one thing I never got was why cyclists are always so offended when a company states that their grease is "bicycle specific". They are not claiming that there is magic pixie dust in the grease. They are simply stating that it was designed with bicycles in mind. People assume that this is marketing b.s. based on a comparison to automotive grease. Their argument usually goes someting like, "If automotive grease is good for cars is must be great for bikes. Since automotive grease is so great for bikes and is cheaper than bicycle grease, the bike companies must be trying to rip me off." That simply isn't the case. This is paranoia bred from a lack of understanding.

I don't know that a lot of research and development dollars are needed to figure out what grease will work best for a bicycle bearing. The grease manufacturers already know what that would be. The bicycle companies probably only need to call the grease maker and say "I want the best grease for use in a bike." or "I want a half decent grease for use in a bike but one that isn't super expensive." Then the bike company has to pay for containers, labels, distribution, marketing, etc. If the bike companies didn't do this no one else would, leaving us all to figure it out for ourselves. This doesn't mean that the grease is not bicycle specific and does not warrant the higher price. If you can find the same thing being used in another industry for less then there is no reason to pay the higher prices incurred by the relatively small bicycle industry. The issue becomes; is the other product exactly the same? and is it actaully an cheaper? Let's not forget about convenience either. Doing all the reasearch and driving across town to get a pound of grease for $3-4 less isn't worth it to me.

The use of polyurea grease on bicycles seems to be relatively new. I'm guessing in the last 7 years since that's the last time I remember seeing lithium based grease marketed for use on bicycles. Polyurea is considered the best grease type for ball bearing use. This doesn't mean that lithium all of the sudden became bad for bicycle bearings, it's just doesn't last as long. So even though you can get lithium grease cheaper it may not be more economical. First of all your maintenance cycles with lithium grease will be more frequent requiring more grease comsumption and more frequent bearing repackings. Second, your bearings might see more wear possibly resulting in an expensive wheel purchase (assuming cup and cone systems) at an earlier date.

As to the electric motor grease I'd like to know the price. Seeing how the eclectric motors are a high heat application it would stand to reason that the oil in the grease is synthetic. Synthetics increases the operating temps of the grease but are more expensive than non-sytnhetics. The Park Polylube 1000 uses non-synthetic oils so it might come out a bit cheaper. Anyway, I'm getting burnt out on grease and don't feel like researching electric motor grease to confirm this so I'll wait to see if someone else does. Cheers

Pete, I really appreciate all the facts you have dug up on grease. This topic is a passion of mine. Regarding the benefits of polyurea-based grease and how it compares to others, below is an excerpt and a link I found (and posted about) last year when I researched this topic to exhaustion. Based on what I found, namely that calcium sulfonate complex grease compares very favorably to polyurea in every way, I decided to keep using Lubrimatic Marine Wheelbearing (calcium sulfonate complex) grease from Home Depot. Easy to get, very inexpensive. If Park Polylube were as easy to obtain without paying a shipping charge that effectively doubles the cost, I'd probably buy that instead, but for under $3 a tub and available a few blocks away, the Lubrimatic is hard to beat. I also agree with sentiments expressed above, that probably the most important element in maintaining bearings, is keeping the grease uncontaminated. No matter how good a grease is, once it's got grit or moisture in it, it has to be changed.

Here's a small excerpt from one of many links I have regarding greases. This one compares calcium sulfonate complex grease with polyurea-based lubricant.

..."The organic polyurea thickener system offers temperature range limits similar to the metal soap-thickened grease, but additionally it has antioxidation and antiwear properties that come from the thickener itself. Polyurea thickeners might become more popular but they are difficult to manufacture, requiring the handling of several toxic materials. While the thickener has a high dropping point, the composition begins to thermally degrade at temperatures which limit its usefulness over time at high temperatures. However, it does not have the pro-oxidant tendencies of the metal soap-thickened greases. The exception is the calcium sulfonate complex thickener system. Similar to the polyurea, it possesses inherent antioxidant, rust-inhibiting properties, but in addition has inherent high dropping points and EP/antiwear properties." ...

https://tinyurl.com/g9cc2 (scroll down half way to "thickeners")

Well, I can tell you what really gets *me* hacked off. It's a company re-labeling a simple marine wheelbearing grease and THEN implying that it's "bicycle specific". Know who does this? Phil Wood. The highly touted (by some, not by me) "Phil Waterproof Wheelbearing Grease" is none other than Drydene Marine Wheelbearing grease, repackaged and sold without acknowledgement. This came to light here on the Forums back in '05. I had always been skeptical about that grease because there was no technical info whatsoever on the tube--so no way to know what thickener is used, or anything else. And for me, the "Phil" mystique ain't enough. I think it's outrageous that they do that, and I lost a lot of respect for the company when I learned that. I don't mind at all if a company labels a grease as "bicycle specific", but they darn well better be able to explain why, or at least reveal the minimum of facts about the product.

+1. I figure if it can keep the water out of a trailer wheel bearing when submerged and keep the trailer rolling well, it'll work well in my bike. Before I used white lithium bicycle grease, haven't noticed a difference in performance, except that if I'm repacking after a recent submersion in the river there is alot more of the marine grease left in there than there ever was of the lithium.

Thank you. Finding good information on polyurea proved to be difficult.

Since you are going to know more about grease than me, I'd like to ask you a few questions.

Everything I've read states that he most important part of a grease is the viscosity of the oil used to make it, high viscosity oil for high speed applications, low viscisotiy oil for low speed applications. Is it safe to assume that automotive greases are made from high viscosity oils? What would the theoretical problems be if you used a grease made of high viscosity oil in a low speed application and visa versa?

I've also heard that aoutomotive greases are becoming increasingy acceptable for bicycle bearings. Is this a function of adding paraffinic oils after cooking the grease? My understanding is that the paraffinic oils added, to back off the apparent viscosity, aren't "trapped" in the thickener like the nepthanic cooking oils, therefore the paraffinic oils are more readily available to lubricate. Or is this because of EP additives that allow the automotive greases to release the oil at a lower load/temp? Or is it because this calcium sulfonate complex is becoming more widely used?

Edit: Is there any merit to the belief that some types of automotive greases don't perform well at the relatively low teperatures seen in bicycle bearings? If so, what greases would those be?

Thanks.

Amen! That might explain the skepticism towards other "bike specific" grease manufacturers. All it takes is one bad apple.

Bingo!!!

It goes with your (our) observation that bike companies are most likely to rebrand the grease that already is available. The *volume* of grease marketed in cycling would be miniscule compared with automotive and industrial greases -- it's the repackaging and low volume of sales that likely is pushing up the price of bicycle grease, not the special superduper grease inside. At least, that's my take on it. Plus, the (OCP) cycling market is so open to exploitation by the "this is so good, you simply can't not use it" mantra, that you could repackage the worst grease in the world in a fancy tube, and they will buy it in droves. (/cynicism off)

In addition, anyone with exposed bearings on a bicycle (as opposed to sealed) is going to do their servicing based on the conditions and distances they ride, irrespective of the grease they use. As observed, contamination degrades the value *anyway* -- the manufacturers haven't come up with a secret additive yet to dissolve grit. A bicycle that is used everyday on mountain trails or in wet conditions naturally should be serviced more often than one that spends 6/7 days on a rack and is only brought out if the sun is shining, and covers only smooth sealed roads.

Just on automotive greases (and I am recalling my rallying days) the high-remp applications, to me, seem to be only in the front wheel bearings with disc brakes, for which there are specific greases made so they remain more viable as the temperatures rise, and the chemical composition is less likely to break down.

The other major application for automotive greases is in ball joints, prop shaft joints, and pivots for things like drum brakes, gearbox linkages and so on where the heat generated is unlikely to exceed that of a very hot summer's day in northern Texas (or Central Australia).

Then there are electrical bearings we've already discussed that have, I think, there own unique qualities, including the need for reduce-torque lubricants.

The remainder of the bearings on a car generally are lubricated by oils.

To me, the conditions that most replicate those likely to be encountered by bicycles are in the suspension -- open to grit ingression, water washout and contamination, and constant movement.

I think for most DIY cyclists (and I make a very distinct differentiation there between DIY and pro) the type of general grease used in suspension and ordinary, non-disc-brake axles (such as trailers) is what they opt for.

The high-temperature requirements for disc-brake environments and lubricant company efforts to market a one-grease-does-all (including disc brakes) that require a viscosity at ambient tempertures higher than other greases, tends to confuse the issue.

And again, the quality of the original bearings, races, and cones has to play a role in how effective a lubricant is -- poor quality will always be poor quality. This starts with the quality of the outer surfaces of the balls and races and how truly (microscopically) smooth they are.