Talking of relabelled bike greases, I have a tube of Finish Line Teflon Grease where the packaging was a stick on label not printed on the tube. I removed the label which was pretty difficult, it had sticky black adhesive that was presumably designed to make it hard to remove or see through.
The tube itself has a printed label for White Lightening Pool & Spa lube formulated with dupont krytox. The grease smells different and is more translucent than normal finish line stuff so it doesn't appear that they where simply using some already printed tubes they got cheap.

I'm not sure how true that is any more. I think many manufactures are specifying a more appropriate lubrication when they order bearings. At least I've seen several new components where the cartridge bearings had a larger quantity of thicker lube instead of the sparing application of thin almost oil like grease that was common.

The radar goes up on this one! Water resistance, high probability of volume use in the spa and pool industry meaning lower cost than an equivalent bike grease... it might just be the ticket on the next visit to the pools shop.

It's posts like this that bring to the surface tips that might just be useful.

As to your other point... it may be so, but I do know that the rear hub bearings I replaced recently had the same serial number as the off-the-shelf generic industrial bearings, so there were no special orders on lubricant there

Keep in mind that "sealed" bearings are really cartridge bearings. Yes, they are sealed, but they are not weather-proof and their lubrication does dry up or get old.

I have re-packed cartridge bearings when that was all they needed; the seals can be pried off and then snapped back on.

FWIW, I prefer regular loose ball bearings because for the same given space they use larger (and hopefully stronger) balls since no room is taken up by cartridge components.

On the other hand, I think MAVIC's on-the-bike adjustment overcomes any complaints I might have about cartridges.

You are so kind, to give me so much credit! Sadly, I'm still trying to learn most of these answers myself. I hope someone else can shed more light. Jobst Brandt talks a lot about the importance of viscosity (I'll try to find a link for this) in regards to how well a grease can refill a space in a moving bearing. Especially in a very low-movement bearing like a headset, it's vital that the grease be able to re-coat the balls with very little movement side to side. That is what prevents them from making micro-welds with the races upon impact, and pulling loose material from the race, which (in Jobst's opinion) is indeed what causes "brinnelling". Intuitively we might always think a thicker, stickier grease is better--and I used to use aluminum-based wheelbearing grease for that reason, it's stiff and very sticky. But what happens with these thicker greases is that they just get shoved to the side, as the balls roll around. That grease doesn't re-fill and re-coat, so the net result is a big loss of protection. This is most likely to happen in a low-speed application like a bicycle bearing.

The Lubrimatic is the same consistency as Poly-Lube. Buttery, tacky enough to stay put within the races very well, but not so thick that it gets pushed aside in a glob. I think that's the most important criterion, not necessarily why a certain grease is the proper viscosity for bicycle use--just that it is.

The whole issue of temperature has a lot more to do with drop point, i.e. whether a grease will liquify at a certain temperature. As you know, when that happens, the grease does not re-constitute as it cools. It's broken down and essentially useless. But that's not a concern with bicycles, thankfully. I don't know if there are indeed greases that *require* a high temperature in order to be most effective. I can understand why that could be the case, for the reasons that you alluded to before in terms of how readily the matrix will release the oil.

The more I learn about this, the more I want to know. If you have any links related to the differences between the paraffinic vs. nepthanic oils, I'd love to read more. Thanks again for your extremely interesting and valuable work on this!

I've read some of Jobst's writing on fretting.

I thought this was pretty cool site,
https://www2.nynas.com/naph/start/art...=433&Sec_ID=55
Here is an excerpt, "If, for example, you study what happens in the interface between a ball and the bearing in a ball-bearing, then you find that the oil that separates them is compressed at such a high pressure that it forms an amorphous structure, not unlike glass, for a very short time. The greater the tendency of the oil to change from a fluid to a solid form in this manner, the greater the friction. Paraffinic oil is better able than naphthenic oil to remain fluid under high pressure"

That is a great article! And it underlines your point very clearly as to why there are some greases that do *not* function well *except* at high temps, therefore (just as Barnett said) they would not be good for bicycle use:

"It is, of course, a good thing that there are greases that function at high temperatures. But it would be wrong to believe that these greases will also function well at low temperatures. On the contrary, they often function very badly. The high temperature greases do not generally release a single drop of oil at low temperatures. In fact the opposite happens, and they absorb the grease that has already been released. This results in the object that is to be lubricated – for example a ball-bearing – drying out. With the increased friction, the temperature rises, oil is released and the bearing is lubricated again: then it cools down and dries out again, resulting in an increased pace of wear and tear on the bearing."

Now, how do we get grease manufacturers to let us know which greases have paraffinic as well as naphthenic oils? Some of them won't even reveal what thickener they use.

Here is a quote from this guy: Bo Jacobsson.
Professor of Machine Elements at the Lund Institute of Technology
1973–1987 – Professor at the University of Luleå 1987–1997
– Consulting engineer at SKF Engineering Research Center in Nieuwegein, the Netherlands, as well as associate professor at the Chalmers Institute of Technology and the University of Luleå.

"It is a well known fact that the oil can bleed out too fast at high temperatures. There is a trend for modern machines to be constructed so they can operate at higher temperatures than old machines, so the lubrication industry has developed lubricant greases that can be used at increasingly high temperatures. An important step in this development was the emergence of lithium soap.
It is, of course, a good thing that there are greases that function at high temperatures. But it would be wrong to believe that these greases will also function well at low temperatures. On the contrary, they often function very badly. The high temperature greases do not generally release a single drop of oil at low temperatures. In fact the opposite happens, and they absorb the grease that has already been released. This results in the object that is to be lubricated – for example a ball-bearing – drying out. With the increased friction, the temperature rises, oil is released and the bearing is lubricated again: then it cools down and dries out again, resulting in an increased pace of wear and tear on the bearing."

Apology accepted rmfnla.

Sorry, but can you tell me just what the low temperatures are that are being discussed. Having spent half a winter in Canada, where the maximum day temps can be minus 38 deg C, I can tell you that for autmotive, industrial and mining applications in truly cold weather, I can believe the performance of oils and greases will change when compared with high-temperature environments. But are the normal ambient temperatures that bicycles operate under -- let's say between 0 and 45 deg C, the low temperatures being referred to in the articles and this discussion?.

Yes, those normal ambient temps would still be way too low for these hi-temp greases to function properly, according to this article, as I understand it. But Pete undoubtedly knows more than I do, and can confirm.

The SKF website has a ton of info. This link will bring you to the exact page that talks about operating temps for grease. If you click on the diagrams it gives temp ratings for differnt greases. Diagram 2 lists general types of grease. They list a Low Temperature Performance Limit and a Low Temperature Limit which are what we would be concerned with for bicycles. Below the low temp performance limit the thickener doesn't release the oil as well. They say you should never go below the low temp. limit.
https://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/p...ewlink=1_0_106

It seems to me that based on the previous link at SKF (specifically diagrams 1 and 2) that bicycle applications with low load would be fine in the green and yellow zones taking into consideration this quote: "Values for the low temperature performance limit are different for roller and ball bearings. Since ball bearings are easier to lubricate than roller bearings, the low temperature performance limit is less important for ball bearings."

This suggests to me that most NLGI 2 automotive greases would be fine. I found an additional link that explains some of the ASTM Tests: https://www.usaindustrialgroup.com/oilanalysis.htm

From this, it appears that Pour Point is a useful characteristic: "Determination of the lowest temperature at which a petroleum product may be used if fluidity is necessary to the application."

I personally have been using Valvoline greases for my bearings (because I use it on my cars). I've used the Durablend ($3 for a 1lb tub):
https://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ....asp?product=3
The Pour Point is listed as -18C under the Product Specs link.

It appears that the full synthetic works to an even lower temp:
https://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=59
The Pout Point is listed as -80F (which is -62C), although the viscosity index is higher 135 vs 110.

Based on all of this I think I'll stick with Valvoline Durablend at $3/tub. Does anyone else have any other conclusions on a good grease at a good price?

LubriPlate--- https://www.lubriplate.com/webstore/default.aspx I used this stuff when I raced dirt bikes in all kinds of extreme conditions. Also used it when I was working as an Aircraft mechanic. The stuff is sold for all types of applications and in a lot of different sizes.

I also agree with a good marine grease for outboard lower ends--it's waterproof and the gears in the lower end of an outboard motor turn up faster than any pedal bike ever will.

My opinion is that 99% of bearing failures are due to LACK of servicing. Periodic cleaning and repacking (depending on use and mileage) just like you should do for cars front wheel bearings will alleviate any problems.

Bikes are not the SPACE SHUTTLE--nothing high tech on them--do some maintenance--have no problems.

One question about so-called expert LBS bike mechanics---do they have to have any formal training/schooling. Do they have any credentials/certificates IE: ASE auto mechanics--A&P Government License Aircraft Mechanics etc. Or are they just people who just started fixing in a bike shop and use info from the owner or another mech? What makes them experts?

I found two good websites (one was the NLGI website) that stated that Polyurea grease is "best for ball bearings". I haven't been able to figure out the exact reason though. I think it has something to do with the fact that ball bearings apply rather high loads to the grease.

All the websites about grease agrew that the most iportant part of a grease is the oil viscosity that the grease is made from Low viscosity=low speed, high viscosity=high speed.

I agree that most NLGI 2 greases will be fine. One interesting note, I keep reading that Polyurea and Lithum are incompatible. Also, I keep reading that Polyurea is compatible with elastomers. I don't know if that means other greases aren't.

Agreed. I think this grease discussion has gone beyond what is necessary for bike mechanics but is just for fun and personal knowledge at this point.

Bicycle retail mechanics can get BSE Tech 1 and Tech 2 certified. Most of us don't get this though. Usually our formal training is limited to a G.E.D.

I am not sure it's really fair to just say bike shop mechanics aren't experts and pick up their knowledge here and there. As we all know, there is a lot of reading on the internet, and I suspect there is a lot of data that is supplied with components to shops that the general public doesn't get to see.

When you look at any sort of training, all it does is short-cut the time it takes to pick up the skills and knowledge that would gained in the course of experimenting. It's much easier and much, much faster to have someone prepare procedures or routines and give reasons why a job should be done a certain way and torques applied and preloads adjusted, than for an individual to go through all the permutations.

Plus, there is usually more than one way to do a job as wily bush mechanics will show.

Good LBS mechanics (formally trained or not) will be like good auto and aircraft mechanics -- they will keep up with their reading of manuals and technical data, and maintian their practice. Bad mechanics of any ilk will always be bad mechanics (although the resulting risks may not be so good).

You could say that it starts with engineering, but the only real difference between bikes these days in terms of technology is carbon fibre and its need to be babied compared with metal components. Engineering these days, to me, seems to be a means to find enforced obsalescene and a new fashion.

Anyway, Pete, I appreciate the discussion you have enabled. Thanks.

If you look at my original posts you will hopefully recall that we were discussing automotive grease as is commonly found at auto parts stores.

Yes, there are exotic versions of almost everything and yes, they are intended for exotic applications; bicycles are not one of them.

Automotive grease hardly falls into the exotic catagory and works just fine for bicycles.

Don't count your apologies until they're offered.

Rowan--very well stated--I always held to the fact that you need practical hands on experience in anything you do--in any field of endeavor.

The point I was trying to make is that a person should not take as gospel truth EVERYTHING someone working in a bike shop says.

I have been in the mechanic field all my life, Auto, small engines & Aviation and have become very skeptical about what people tell me. In the past 2 months that I have been in the process of researching and buying my first road bike I've talked to at least 50 people---some of them only knew the fact that they where working in a bike shop and others were what I call "WELL VERSED IN THEIR FIELD".

I was extremely fortunate to find a LBS owner less than 2 miles away that I do consider an "expert". I have been going in there almost every other day for the past couple of months with a minimum of a half dozen questions I have written down. He has had an answer for every question--not only does he answer the question but if possible he walks over to a bike and points out what I'm questioning. He has fitted me for the bike, discussed various options for how & how much I wanted to ride and all types of bike related items--shoes,pedals,clothing,computers etc. Even introduced me to the Shimano Rep when he came in.

I feel very confident buying from this owner and feel I will be satisfied with the bike. I am under the opinion that if people would ask a lot of questions and do some reasearch IE: reading Bike Forums etc. & shop at different bike shops they would become more informed and satisfied with their purchases.

He was even nice enough to take back the bike I first ordered when I wasn't satisfied with the color. If your ever in Melbourne, FL check out Jim at Revolutions Cyclery.

And now back to the MAIN SUBJECT of this post......he uses "Dumonde Tech" https://hgnr.com/hgnrbldtinfo2.pdf for the wheel bearings. Says he has been using this stuff for years and it works great, no problems.

I was just pokin' fun. No hard feelings?

Thank you, but I don't want to take credit for that. I learned alot because of this thread.

Absolutely no hard feelings.

Poking fun is always welcome, and thanks for some truely interesting information!

I thought some of you might find this of interest — Waterproof Bicycle Grease...

Very enlightening and probably true---but are they trying to do us a favor or make money or both?

Will work as well as the big name brands if used with proper maintenance.

https://www.sandsmachine.com/grease_t.htm

Barnett's is right about not _all_ automotive greases are suited for bicycle use. But also note that Barnett's also indirectly says, that _some_ automotive greases works just fine for bicycle use. The question is which are which, and Barnett's therefore takes the sensible approach, that you either educate yourself in what types of greases that are suitable, or you stick to the safe way of using bicycle specific greases. Bad decisions can be made about automotive greases, and since Barnett's audience is bicycle mechanics this amplify the problem: there is a huge difference in making a mistake on your own bike, and on making a mistake on 50 bikes belonging to paying costumers.

Fx I recently bought of tube of so called "silicone grease" that stood on the automotive section in the shop. This grease has many fine qualities, but is unsuited for bicycle bearings. But how would a bicycle mechanic without any knowledge of grease differentiate between, Silicone grease, Lithium, calcium complex soap, and Teflon grease etc. sitting on the shop shelf?

Barnett's advice is sensible; if you know enough about grease to make an informed decision, you may choose a suitable automotive grease, if you don't, then don't. It is like when people ask about if it is a good idea to use wd-40 on their bicycle; the short answer is "don't", because a more nuanced answer is pretty long.

Some people choosing non-bicycle specific greases may end up with inferior greases, since additives like EP, rust/corrosion inhibitors, type of soap etc, may make a difference in real use. General marine grease however, tend to have characteristics that are suitable for bicycle use, which is why such grease is often recommended here on this forum.

For home mechanic use, I find Finish Line's Teflon grease very good, and easy, precise, clean and economical to use when applied with a grease gun, and the tube keeps the grease free of contamination, which is very important for bearings. So I don't bother with big tubs of marine grease even if they are cheaper per 100 ml.

--
Regards

I just want to add that, when using a bicycle lubricant/grease, please consider products that are safe for the environment. Many popular solvents and petroleum based products do work well for their intended use but are highly toxic. I've been using Green Oil products (www.green-oil.net) and I'm very impressed by their performance and longevity. This small company's mission statement impressed me enough to give them a try a year ago since I've become more and more concerned with our impact on the environment. I guess its just the Washingtonian in me that feels compelled to do my part to keep our Planet clean and healthy.