strop

No new ground being broken here as the same issues come up every time they figure out how to automate something. Cameras are one example, where the camera auto-focuses, sets aperture and exposure etc. but you still have the ability to override it with manual settings. Cars have this too where you get the choice of manual or auto shifting, holding a gear and some smarts than can figure out that if I'm pedal to the metal I don't want it to upshift at 3000RPM.

I could see two sets of controls. One to set the cadence up or down when riding at a fixed cadence, and the other to lock gear, set auto mode, or manually shift up or down. Even my current car, which is an automatic lets me shift manually and to be honest that's the mode I drive it in 99% of the time. The biggest benefit I could see from auto shifting on a bike is managing the front and rear together and choosing a sensible point to switch the front. Right now that's two gear changes as I typically go up on the front and down one on the back to jump one step. I sometimes lose track of which gear I'm in and push the chain too far across from little cog at the front to the little cogs at the back. An auto system would avoid that combination and could also trim the front intelligently based on the cog selection at the rear.

Snowman219

RAAAWR! I R NOT WEAK! HULK SMASH! I would just like to say that me and my dad decided to do a running race around a small baseball diamond. IMO it was a tie but he said he won : P. Either way it was a close race. Speak for yourself, I'm not a wuss.

Al1943

I don't expect to see automatic transmissions common on road bikes until the components, including batteries, become as light as the current high end components, and at a real world price. Not saying it won't happen but I think we've got quite a ways to go.

Al

strop

Yes, and I could probably beat my dad in a foot race around a baseball diamond too but he's 73 years old :-D

strop

The Shimano Di2 is already lighter than just about every other group set on the planet, especially the ones that come on Walmart bikes. There is no reason it should cost more than mainstream components since wire/electronics are a lot cheaper to make than mechanical parts and cables. The only reason it costs so much right now is because they are trying to position it as high-end and it's low volume. Li-Polymer batteries have reduced in size/weight at a frightening rate recently and a set of aero levers with switches will ultimately weigh considerably less than current brifters.

operator

Yeah why bother, Shimano should just become a non-profit. Why bother recouping r&d costs at all?

joejack951

An autoshifting bike would be quite easy (Shimano already made something along those lines with an IGH I believe), but without some very sophisticated logic, it would be horrible to ride (aside from just cruising around). Attempting to read the mind of a computer and anticipate when shifts will happen (especially up front) in order to not be thrown off by a sudden shift would be impossible (not so for the computers handling all of the inputs with an automatic transmission in a car). How would the system know when you wanted to hold in a higher gear and mash up a hill or turn a nice slow cadence to order to let your heart settle down?

noglider 

I don't think anyone implied that.

operator

Read the entirety of #81

strop

Nothing in what I said suggested they were doing anything wrong, they run a business and I'd expect them to want to recover their costs. The point I was making was that the devices required are not intrinsically expensive, i.e. they're not made from unobtanium or some other precious material. My kids have a computer aided remote controlled helicopter that was in the bargain bin at toys-r-us, servos/computers are dirt cheap these days. Doing this twenty years ago the computer to control this stuff would have cost more (and probably weighed more) than the entire bike. Now I suspect that my Garmin 705 at 100g has more computing power than my first PC.

strop

Cars have exactly the same problem. The automatic doesn't know you have a hill approaching and should shift down before the engine starts to struggle. It doesn't know that when you dive into a corner fast and brake hard that you want to stay in a low gear to get a better exit speed. Somehow though manual cars are becoming more and more scarce each year, as everyone drives automatic (at least that's true in the US, not so much so in Australia/Europe). The computers can be very smart and technology will only improve that. I used to hate automatics with a vengeance but my 540i BMW won me over as it had a very smart computer combined with gob-loads of low end torque to the point that it always seemed to be in the right gear no matter what.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that there are a ton of issues that would need to be sorted out before this becomes mainstream, but it does make for an interesting discussion.

joejack951

Your BMW's engine and your body respond to gear changes very differently. What works for a car will not work for a bike.

Manual transmissions make it tougher to text, smoke, jerk off, and drive at the time. That's why no one in the US wants one.

noglider 

An engine does what the human wants it to, and it doesn't have a preference. On a bike, where the human is the engine, the human wants to go slowly or quickly, gently or hard. A motor has no such wants. How can the transmission heed our wants? The only way I can see it is if there are two knobs, one for cadence we want to use and one for level of force we want to exert. But think about that: that's what legs do naturally, so why dial in what you're doing with your legs?

operator

You're all saying the same thing. That the user wants control of his own

1) cadence
2) pedaling force

I bet you some people wouldn't care for either. There's a market for auto and manual - auto if they can make it cheap enough.

HillRider

Current bikes have "knobs" that do exactly what you are describing. We call them "shift levers".

prathmann

Note that Shimano has already been marketing more reasonably priced components with automatic electronic shifting in their 'Smover' series mainly sold outside the US and targeted at the commuter/shopper/casual recreational rider. These bikes generally have IG hubs, integrated dynamos, chainguards, racks, etc.
E.g. https://www.bike-eu.com/public/file/a...bik008z031.pdf
In the US, Shimano seems to feel that the best marketing approach is to first penetrate the high-end race market with the Di2 and then let the technology filter down to the lower level groups

operator

They've been doing that for a while now, new version of every group is always dura ace and filters down.

Juha

They should put a lever there that I could move while I ride, indicating I want to shift up/down from current gear. Front and rear gear mechanisms would have separate levers. For ease of use, the levers should be mounted somewhere I can easily reach them, and maybe put one lever for each hand for convenient use. With some engineering, I'm sure the levers could be even turned into some kind of pushbutton thingy, with each "click" moving one gear in either direction. Remember, you heard it from me first!

Seriously though, I too am not convinced automatic shifting would be so great.

Regarding cars, it's true that automatic transmission is far less common in Europe. Semi-automatic systems seem to be catching up (the kind where you initiate gear change by clicking a lever, but the rest of the process is automatic). Where I live, if you take your driver's license test with an automatic gearbox, it will be indicated in your license, and you can only drive cars with automatic transmission. If you take the test with manual shifting, you can drive whichever you like.

--J

dabac

I'm not too keen on full auto either, but once you have the electronics in there you can do a lot more with only a little less. Features that I'd like to see are:
1) get away from front shifter and rear shifter - introduce upshift button and downshift button. The electronics keeps track of if it's the RD or the FD(or both) to actuate. It'd be simple enough to make the system recognize a doubletap if you want a bigger jump.
2) we could have several shifting positions as we today have several braking positions.
3) I think I'd like an auto downshift feature, maybe linked to coasting and braking. I tend to forget to downshift when reaching intersections, which makes getting back to speed a wobbly, clumsy affair. Might require the reintroduction of the BB-based "freewheel" to work well though.
4) TT riders and tri athletes might like a HRM/powertap interface and an auto shift function. They'd just have to enter their parameters and go.

The idea of having it powered by a battery that's charged off-bike isn't that pleasing though. I'd much prefer a ride-powered solution. Hub dynos is an obvious option, but real slick would be to have some magnetized links in the chain, and then running it through a coil to(which could double as the FD), if that coudl generate enough energy to the system.

Chombi

Funny, it used to be that "10 speeds" meant ten total speeds. These days it means ten rear cogs............. Before long the same will happen with "12 speeds"!

Chombi

noglider 

I realize that. And then we're back to where we are. Two knobs to adjust the transmission, so what exactly have we automated with this automatic transmission?

Prathmann, that magazine is interesting. I notice it's a few years old. Commuter bikes are so far ahead in the non-US markets! Or, rather, I should say the US is so far behind the rest of the world in the commuter bike realm.

Sixty Fiver

"I think I'd like an auto downshift feature, maybe linked to coasting and braking. I tend to forget to downshift when reaching intersections, which makes getting back to speed a wobbly, clumsy affair. Might require the reintroduction of the BB-based "freewheel" to work well though."

You need a Bendix 2 speed "kicker".

Garthr

You see, there is no perfect solution ....... for those that have or want less speeds, at one time bikes were sold with less gears. For those that like these set-ups , they only last a short time before the manufacturers decide to add more. All of the sudden our drivetrain is obsolete. So .... without thought ..... we're to rid ourselves of our deficient systems in favor of a "better" set-up. Better for who? I don't blame them, or the riders that think they need more ...... it's just how they are. Most think more is better. Often ..... more is just more and doesn't really add anything. No one is immune to this, from 5 speeders to 11 speeders...... if you think your set-up is great today .... you'll soon be told it is deficient, and you future options for replacements will be eventually limited. That's life as we know it today. If you like your set-up, the thing to do is buy extra FW's or cassettes for the future.

I understand manufacturers not wanting to make parts for older drivetrains ..... they have a bottom line to meet. That's why nobody's right or wrong ...... it's just the truth of the moment.

Any yes .... I've tried all the indexed shifting systems.... and I do not, nor ever will own such. I like the feel of friction shifting and the skill it requires to use it. While I like friction,don't assume I think everyone should be using it. Indexed systems are just no fun for me. . . .and please don't take this as a dig to those who like indexed systems ..... to each their own for any of the infinite reasons why.

How many gears does one really need? For instance, I use a 7sp triple, which gives me 16 distinct gears. I am a human being, not a machine ..... I don't need to pedal at a certain cadence every moment of the day. 40, 60, 80, 120? It's all good. If I can't find a gear to ride in those 16 ..... either I'm doing the wrong activity, or my expectations of cycling need to change..... most likely the latter.

joejack951

Who is claiming obsolescence or deficiencies? Marketing? That's the only people I can think of. If I believed every marketeer, I'd need to be Bill Gates to afford everything that I "need" to have. But, as with most things in life, I make my decisions based on what works for me and not what I'm told to buy. 7 speed was introduced when? Sometime in the mid '80s or so? Do you know that you can still buy new bikes at an LBS equipped wih 7 speed drivetrains? That's ~25 year old technology still being sold. Compare that to the car or computer market. You may not have the selection you once had, but I'm willing to bet 7 speed freewheels are much cheaper now then when they were first introduced, which at the time I'm sure was only on high end bikes. And I'm sure the marketeers were out telling people that 5 and 6 speeds were obsolete. I can still buy parts for a 5 or 6 speed bike though.

But they still do make parts for older drivetrains. Really, it's the guys using much newer technology (brifters) that are getting screwed. You can still buy Dura Ace shifters for your friction shifting bikes. Try finding Dura Ace or Ultegra 9 speed brifters for sale these days. They are gone.

Exactly. That's cool that you like friction shifting. From a minimalist standpoint, it wins. From a user-friendly standpoint, it sucks IMO. Brifters are the exact opposite.

If you carry more than one gear, you are being hypocritical. Look at single-speed MTBers. If they can get by with one gear, so can you. You might not be able to pedal down any hill or at a reasonable cadence on flat ground, but you'll still get by. Right?

See how ridiculous the gear game can be? A 21 speed triple might be the perfect fit for you. I've used 18, 21, 24, 27, and 30 speed triples. I like my 30 speed the best.

Garthr

Yes joejack951 , the gear game can be silly. . . . but as the saying goes .... it is what it is.

Though I gave up single speeds in 1977, it's nice to have a choice or 1 or 33.