But I don't begrudge them those prices for tubes. Yes, it's 3X, but it's only an extra $4, and if I need it fast, $4 isn't a bad convenience fee.

My LBS charges the same price for Park tools as I can get online. That's a no-brainer!

I work in another industry where the little "Mom and Pop" stores are competing with large retailers who get a significantly lower Wholesale pricing for the same product. But personal service and "guided" purchasing help are not included at the the Giganto Stores, where they are at the the "Mom and Pop"s.
I realize that when I buy a tool from an LBS, they are looking at a probable loss of repair business that they might otherwise be supplying. How can anyone expect them to subsidize this loss by discounting the tools in the first place. Since there are some tools like headsetting presses or re-facing/re-tapping tools and services, that I couldn't ever justify acquiring for myself, I need an LBS around to provide these services. I think of the higher LBS costs as a sort of "subsidy tax" to keep this resource around for those times when I need them. I try and source stuff through ther local LBS before I look online. if they can't help me, then I feel perfectly justified in using an online retailer.

Its not always better at the online stores. I order a pump online with a larger order to save on shipping on April 30th. The pump still has not arrived talked to customer service a couple of times and they say that they are expecting the shipment. I can go to one of the LBS and pay few extra dollars and walk out with the pump today. So there are advantages to the LBS.

I do get some of my stuff from online stores and some from the LBS but I do most my own maintenance except when it come to facing bottom brackets, I'm not going to buy the tools for that ($$$).

Go after your Boss to get what you are paid better, to make it seem like the cost of bike parts is cheap.

Small parts are keystoned (2X)over wholesale , bikes 30%, It pays the shop overhead .

Here is a recent example of me buying online instead of at the LBS.

My touring bike had a 50-39-30 front crank. I wanted to lower it to a 48-36-26.
My local bike shop quoted me a price of $330 Canadian for a specific hollowtech crank.
I found the same crank online from Germany for 106 Euros (about $140) plus 20 Euros ($27) shipping and handling.

I purchased the crank online at a savings of $163 and received the crank in 5 days.

Personally, $163 is too much to give away to my LBS on a single item.

I'm still really curious what everyone here considers a reasonable charge for mechics time, and a reasonable pay rate for the mechanic.

From what I've heard asking locally, shops change from 2x to 6x minimum wage (based on how long it would take me to do the work, they may finish the job faster), and I've heard claimed pay rates from 20% over minimum wage to 5x minimum wage (at the one shop charging 6x).

I make less than double minimum wage so, all other issues aside, it doesn't make sense for me to pay a shop for any work I can do myself.

What is a fair charge for their time? What's a fair change if I do the work for someone else? What's fair pay working for a LBS?

elcraft, selling tools does not cut into repair business. In fact, it can increase it. Some customers try their own repairs, realize they're in over their heads, then bring the bike in for repair.

If someone competent buys a tool, the shop couldn't have made the repair for him in the first place. Tools are one of the few things I buy at my LBS. Yet they're always extremely cheerful with me and indicate they're glad to see me.

Nightshift, I don't know what shops here charge, but I'd be OK if it were up to $50/hour. I live in NJ, near NYC. Firstly, understand that for any business to sell labor, it MUST triple the hourly wage. So if they're paying the mechanic $17/hour, a $50 labor rate is right. There are SO many costs to providing labor. This tripling is a standard in many service industries.

Secondly, basing anything on minimum wage isn't a good place to start. Minimum wage hasn't kept up with the cost of living. I was a bike mechanic until 1984. In that year, minimum wage was something like $3.50 per hour. Now it's a little over $7. The cost of living has more than doubled, though. In this area, few jobs pay minimum wage. If they did, there would be no applicants.

I work in a service industry where the standard is to bill 1.5x to 2x the pay rate. Triple may be reasonable for a bike shop mechanic, but is certainly not the rule for "any business". That's not meant to be argumentative, just a statement of fact.

Do you know of a better baseline for a living wage? I actually have heard an economist recommend the price of a whole chicken, which is supposedly a good reference point for most developed regions. Without meaning to be a smartass, feel free to express the value as the number of whole chickens you could buy with the money.

What would you consider a reasonable direct labor cost (a bike mechanic doing work independent of a shop). There are reasons this would be worth less than the same quality of work done at a shop, but (if you're not voiding a warranty) I assume it's worth more than a third of what a shop would charge.

I like the chicken as a metric, though I don't know how much they cost. I don't buy many chickens. I used to use bread, but I've lost track of the price of bread lately. I suppose it's about $3 now?

I met a bike wholesaler a year ago. He says that in the good bike shops, the permanent workers make more money than they used to, way back when I was in the business. He figures the manager might make $50,000 or $60,000. That's a low living wage around here, but it is a living wage. Median household income in my town is about $80,000.

You mean "big" bike shops? I'm a "good" bike shop and I've never seen anything remotely close to those figures. There's no way to generate that kind of pay at a 4% net margin unless you are moving a crapload of stuff. Not even if you are the owner.

NightShift: figure about a dollar per minute is fair. That is based on the assumption that the mechanic knows what he is doing and is expeditious about it.

Some of you are looking at it the wrong way. Bike shops don't, for the most part, gouge. Rather discounters discount.

Ordering online typically takes less of your time than going to your LBS.

Yes, I meant big bike shops. High Gear Cyclery has "only" two stores, but they move a lot of high end stuff. And a lot of other stuff. Their service is very good, too.

Mind you, I'm in the NYC metro area, where cost of living is high. A "cheap" decent home costs $400,000.

I agree that bike shops don't gouge! Having worked in them, I've seen how hard it is to turn a profit there.

To add to the discussion, the quoted LBS labor rate is 48€/hr in Frankfurt. If the mechanic gets a third of that (16€/hr) then (s)he makes 2560€/mo (pre-tax) which is lower than the average salary in Germany (3171€/mo pre-tax).

Just my .02€

acidfast7, that sounds reasonably accurate.

if you value your time in the least; ordering on line is way cheaper.

I can sit at the PC and price shop/compare multiple choices; then order and have it in 3 - 5 days. I have never had a quality issue with anything I have ordered. And you cannot beat the clearance prices. I will gladly pay shipping to keep from having to go to the LBS and see if maybe they have what I want. $22 for bar tape?...I don't think so....

I also have extra incentive as the closest LBS is owned and managed by a arrogant ____head.