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Old 07-24-10 | 11:47 AM
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more spokes?

I have a Bianchi Volpe that came with a 23 spoke rear wheel. I ride it with loaded rear panniers and have a lot of issues with it not staying true. Would a rim with more spokes hold up better for me?
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Old 07-24-10 | 11:56 AM
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23? are you sure?

Usually spoke patterns are divisible by four, or at least two.

In any case low spoke wheels are fine for racing and sport riding, but IMO not for heavy duty purposes such as loaded touring. The total strength of a wheel is roughly proportional to the total cross section of all the spokes, so more or heavier spokes (or both) will build you a wheel more suited to your needs.

I've done lots of loaded touring on with 36 spoke wheels built with 14/16g double butted spokes, and never had a problem. Now I'm riding 32h wheels build similarly also without problems, but I wouldn't go less than that.
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Old 07-24-10 | 01:33 PM
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24 maybe? Probably are 32 hehehe
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Old 07-24-10 | 04:33 PM
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Try 36 double butted 15 guage spokes. Properly built it will last years. You will be able to replace the rim when it wears out and still use the same hub and spokes.
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Old 07-25-10 | 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ultraman6970
24 maybe? Probably are 32 hehehe
Sorry, I mean 32 spoke.
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Old 07-25-10 | 01:12 PM
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My loaded tour bikes used 48 spoke rears, but 36 is probably enough,,

builders skill matters a lot in durability..

on tour I have the wheel builder under my hat.
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Old 07-25-10 | 01:28 PM
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Going to 36h will gain you roughly 10% more strength, but it isn't cheap requiring new hubs and rims both.

I suggest you buy only new rims and have a good wheelbuilder build you a proper wheel on your existing hub. When I build HD wheels where durability is a prime concern I use 2 gauges of butted spokes. Usually it'll be 14/16g on the right flange, and 14/17g on the left. For really heavy riders, I've used 13/14g single butted spokes right and 14/16g left. Using different gauges left and right provides more equal stress in the spokes on a dished wheel, and butted spokes tend to be more fatigue resistant improving wheel life.

All in all, I say a better build will probably do you more good, than simply adding 4 more spokes so ask around and find the guy with a reputation for durable wheels, tell him what you're looking for, and take his advice along with having him do the work.
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Old 07-25-10 | 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
All in all, I say a better build will probably do you more good, than simply adding 4 more spokes so ask around and find the guy with a reputation for durable wheels, tell him what you're looking for, and take his advice along with having him do the work.
Bicycle wheels have 4 components - hub, spokes, rim and build quality. I would argue that the latter is the most important.
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Old 07-25-10 | 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
Bicycle wheels have 4 components - hub, spokes, rim and build quality. I would argue that the latter is the most important.
Yep- a good builder can create a very durable wheel out of average components. A poor builder can take the best parts and create a real piece o' crap.

I've built my own wheels for 30 years. After they're built, trued & tensioned, I rarely have to touch them until the rims wear out. Once I let one go too far: https://home.comcast.net/~jeff_wills/...s/rites042.htm
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Old 07-26-10 | 02:05 PM
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What's the best way to learn the art of wheel building/truing? Trial and error? classes? A book?
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Old 07-26-10 | 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jryan
What's the best way to learn the art of wheel building/truing? Trial and error? classes? A book?
Wheel building is one job that requires both knowledge and skill. You should start with a book to get a basic understanding, and a step by step how to, then find some sunk to play with, first practicing truing, then to take apart and do a build. Get the knowledge, then practice to develop the skill then take a shot on your own wheels.
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Old 07-26-10 | 02:20 PM
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Sheldon's and other online wheel building sites were enough reading for me. From there I tuned some of my own existing wheels for a while before jumping in and doing my first set. As a "crib sheet" I had a built wheel close by to compare for spoke heading and crossing over. It really paid off big tohave that wheel as an example. From that point pay serious attention to all the warnings to go slow and in small steps. For me this involved starting the spokes first, then screw them until the end of the spoke just barely covers the spoke's last thread. From there it was 1/2 turn at a time all around the wheel to build up some basic tension, then the truing starts with lateral runout. Then de-stressing, then more tension but now only 1/4 turn per trip around the wheel, true in both lateral and axial, more tension, de-stress, more tension, true, more tension, true, de-stress... .repeat as needed until the spokes have a feel and musical note that I got from sneaky wise checking of custom wheels in stores and from honest talking to the wheel builder at a local road bike store where I buy my butted and ovalized spokes for my serious builds.

My own learning may not match FB's suggestion above but it got me to the same place by just as effective and just as long and detailed a path. They key to both methods being that you want to sneak into it with some work on existing wheels that need help. Nothing like a cheap bike as a project to learn this stuff.
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Old 07-26-10 | 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wills
I rarely have to touch them until the rims wear out. Once I let one go too far: https://home.comcast.net/~jeff_wills/...s/rites042.htm
I had a Sun Zero Degree Lite split like that recently, but the brake surface wasn't very worn. It did give me a little warning, however. The rim wall started bulging there and catching on the brake. I thought I'd bent the rim on a rock, so took the tire off and got out the Crescent wrench to straighten things, but it's straight as an arrow. Tire back on, inflate to 35 psi and bulge is back. Put a little more air in (just up to 55psi in 1.75" Michelin Country Rock) and the split appeared.

I've been scared back to Mavics for the time being.
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Old 07-26-10 | 04:37 PM
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I like Jobst Brandt's book, "The Bicycle Wheel", and there are other good sources of information.
As for tools, be sure you have a spoke wrench that fits snugly and holds all four corners of the nipples.
If you plan to build several wheels a good truing stand is a good investment. So is a tension meter.
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Old 07-26-10 | 05:10 PM
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And a Bicycle Research spoke winding crank screwdriver,

, it helps you count the turns in the end of the nipple, and when a proper length spoke comes up to roughly the beginning of final truing

the end of the spoke pushes the screwdriver's protruding tip out of the nipple slot.

all the way around the wheel.
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