SortaGrey

I've been reading up on the use of this item.. and the question comes to mind. What is the ideal fit of the spoke elbow after passing thru the flange material... it should make the bend right after exiting that hole.. nearly tight to the flange surface[?]. Then it becomes... how much additional length is too much.. provided the spoke head is well seated and the spoke under good tension?

HillRider

Let's see if i can remember the history of this. Years ago, one hub manufacturer (I don't recall which) made their hub flanges thicker than the former standard and DT made some spokes with a longer straight section between the head and the bend. That caused problems with "normal" hubs and the washers were provided to take up the excess space. I believe DT went back to their former spoke dimensions shortly thereafter and the problem requiring the washers went away.

Anyone confirm or refute this and provide the timing?

SortaGrey

From what I remember reading Peter White.. that was the first excuse flown by. Turned out the real one was so machines could lace the spokes easier.

Guess what I am asking in the end.. is it ideal to get a spoke laying on the flange surface after it exits the flange hole.. provided.. the bend is not stressed for bent more? IE.. how much added length after the exit of the flange is too much?

Gettin' a dab anal on my next build....

AEO

probably dura ace.
the flange material on dura ace hubs are extra wide and I can tell you that lacing up 7801 hubs with 2.0/1.8DB spokes was a PITA.

AEO

snug is nice, but IMO the washers are only necessary when you can move the spoke laterally while it's sitting in the flange.
Which I've only gotten when lacing up old sturmey archer hubs with steel hubs. There's a lot less material on steel hubs and the spokes really did need to have slack taken up.

fietsbob

Yup, I expect when I have to re lace and re spoke a new rim
on my steel shell AW3,
they will be useful as the bend has changed for aluminum hub flanges.

SortaGrey

"snug is nice, but IMO the washers are only necessary when you can move the spoke laterally while it's sitting in the flange. Which I've only gotten when lacing up old sturmey archer hubs with steel hubs. There's a lot less material on steel hubs and the spokes really did need to have slack taken up"

Bold mine....... I assume that means in and out.. not side to side.. looking at the spoke.

After all my reading of late..... [I know.. I know.. newbie wheel builders]. Isn't the spoke head at high tension centering into that hole recess.. not allowing movement? Or.. a matter of NDS tension being low enough for a sharp bump to allow detensioning on the wheel bottom? Must be the latter..

So often... books... articles.. just touch on specific items.. those FINE points that really make a difference. Granted often people with vast experience don't make good writers in terms of being clear and detailed.. and the proof readers I suspect often do not know the topics.

Another one just popped in.......... Brandt wants the angle of the spoke redirected once it comes thru the hub.. correcting my hand.. a thumb I think was said. Pretty hard to do on inbound spokes.. and I'd think any mechanical method to lay them down otherwise would load stresses into the steel.........

Grand Bois

I've been using two DT washers under each spoke head when lacing steel Sturmey Archer hubs with DT comp spokes.

Interesting punctuation.

FBinNY 

Without getting involved with the history, or specific hubs, the general rule is that the closed the section of the spoke going out to the rim is to the flange the better it is.

Ideally you'd like it to look like a guitar string winding on the peg, rather than bending out in space then moving into the hole.

So try a spoke with and without the washer and do whatever looks and feels best.

BTW- you don't have to pay bike stuff prices. You just want #2 brass or SS washers available at any decent hardware store. The only problem is they usually sell these a few at a time, so they may not have a 72 in stock.

3alarmer 

I've had pretty good luck with a rubber mallet
and a couple of wood blocks underneath to provide
a negative space for the hub/axle portion that
extends beyond the flange. My old beat up thumbs
just won't do the job.

I only do it with alloy hubs (softer than the spokes)
and I only tap gently. My reasoning is that as long
as the DT stainless spoke is not surface nicked or
cracked in any way, I'm really only improving the
line in the same direction as tension would pull them
anyway.

Also see this:https://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html
and the stress relieving section in this:https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

It's worked for me so far, but....

BikeWise1

I use spoke head washers on any spoke/flange combo that has a sloppy fit. I offer a lifetime (of the rim) warranty against spoke failure on all my wheels and those washers are the "secret ingredient" that allows me to offer said guarantee.

I'm rebuilding a set right now for a customer who, over 7 years, put around 15,000 miles on a pair of CXP-33s on Ultegra 6500 hubs laced with DT 2.0 DB spokes. Never once had to true them, and he never broke a spoke. they were actually nice and straight when he brought the bike in for an overhaul, but the braking surfaces were completely shot! Spoke head washers work!

SortaGrey

Yes.. to the #2 washers.. called the hardware store... they have them. Defnitely have to look to use them with some combinations. Inbound side of the NDS sounds like a plan for most builds.. [?].

Stress relieving... I have come across my own method also. I also grab the spoke pairs.. and.. and I hammer the rim. . To date my truing has been in the rear dropouts. I give the wheel a good spin and tap the rim with a hammer handle that is rubber lined on the handle. Fairly good rap... not like one would do with a nail by any means.. but I can feel the vibrations into the rim... allowing a finger to drag on the rim while it spins. My reasoning: same type of jolt the rim and spokes get going down the road per holes etc. IE.. a simple way to allow stress to equalize and settle the rim in. I'm interested to hear experienced feedback on this routine.

What I want to do is learn the best methods right off. Having to go back and figure out why something broke.. or ??... I like to get it down ONCE. Wrapping my thinker.. such as it is...around the spoke angle at the flange.. is coming along. To me.. it boils to NDS inbound spokes... too slack or low tension.. going compressive during the wheel cycle. This allows the head to slap around.. snap into differing postions when re-tensioned as the wheel moves past 6 o'clock. My Q now becomes: how much weight load vs spoke tension vs road impact vs rim strength.. means NO de-tensioning of the spoke to allow a 'head slap'. So... if a heavyweight is going 15mph with 250 lbs on the rear.. hits a 6" pothole.. how much tension is needed so NO spokes go compressive? Rim to spoke strength and build quality issues... this is one I'd like to see the math types chart off. Maybe they have..........

3alarmer 

Just make sure you understand that the real basis
for relieving/improving the line/ whatever you want
to call it, is that there is quite a bit of stress at the
head bend as the spoke comes to you from the
manufacturer. The process of making them does not
include (to my knowledge) any step to relieve the
stresses at that point that are induced by the
sudden unpleasant yank and bend the poor little
guys get on their heads when born. This is the
essential problem that needs to be addressed, in
addition to fit and future flex during the useful
life of the wheel.

Relieving Stress With A Hammer

SortaGrey

Mike my use of the hammer handle.. I think.. does the same as riding down a harsh road. Good jolts.. the spokes finding their lines and unwinding if there's any twisting being missed. The raps de-tensioning I think.. more than leaning on the rim.. which seems to me only finds mine very solid. IE.. to duplicate in a way the first miles of riding. Grabbing the spokes seems to me is adding higher tension.. and then releasing it.. much different.. I think than riding. I do as I said grab them during tensioning.

TO date.. mostly I use the hammer handle on the final truing. More in a way.. to see if the wheel will 'stand'.. as Brandt states it. IE... a short ride... of sorts.

Should add: to date all of my 'practice' builds are on steel rims of decent condition. Heavy and strong... it was what I had around. Granted the alloys offer advantages... been ragged on ad nausem every time someone brings up steel rims. The aluminum alloy rims when I get some more experience........

MilitantPotato

De-stressing is when you over-load the spoke, stretching the outer radius of the bend beyond it's yield point, and getting its internal stresses more even once you've released the spoke.


Whacking the rim with a hammer might settle some parts in if only slightly, but does nothing for stress relief.
Are you using a sledge hammer? I can't see a small hammer doing much more than denting the rim. A 20lb sledge hammer onto a rim with a mounted tire might at least hint at the impacts a rim takes


As they come, the outer portion of the bend is under heavy tension, and the inner is under very little (maybe even compressive?). When you tension the spoke, only a small portion of the spoke the bend is supporting the tension, so you get failures.
This is what I gleaned from Brandt's book, as well as seminar hosted by google videos.