Quick question (short version):

I’m replacing loose hub ball bearings in a 25-year-old Motobecane Grand Tourer with Weinmann concave rims. The owner is lending the bike to me (sort of giving to me) as my non-beater beater city bike . It was bought to ride cross-country in the mid eighties then pretty much garage stored. Pretty good shape for its age. I rode it last season and now, as my finances do not allow me to buy a bike, I realize I’ll be on this one for at least another season or more, so I decided to do a systematic full overhaul. I’m pretty good at mechanics when I set my mind to it, with a roll cab full of tools, but with limited experience working on bikes and no bike specific tools. I plan on doing the overhaul in stages over several weeks or months.

So, last week I set out to replace the wheel bearings.
The bearings for the front hub that the grease monkey in the LBS sold me were mixed sizes (!) some noticeably smaller than others. I did not catch this until after having installed the mismatched bearings and a frustrating week of not being able to get my front hub adjusted correctly: when ever the hub was adjusted smooth without play off the bike, it became loose as hell once mounted on the bike. I’d even got some rim slap against the brake pad…I chalked this up to not having a cone wrench for precise adjustment along with some mild warp of the rim. Even so, I couldn’t understand why the wheel would be so loose. I read Sheldon and other sources before beginning, so knew what to expect. Some laziness and haste on my part for not completely stripping down the assembly are to blame. Nonetheless, I readjusted the hub countless times to the same effect. I rode about 25-30 miles with this looseness.

Finally, disgusted, a week later I started stripping down the hub. When I removed the cone I was shocked to see, instead of the bearings sitting in a grease configured ring’ (more or less), that a couple bearings were sort of partially ‘stacked’ above one another. WTF?! I dumped four bearings out and then noticed they were two different sizes!
I grabbed my Mitutoyo digital micrometer, my wheel, and headed over to the LBS. Having been sold two different size bearings was just a single element of one of the most indifferent and incompetent customer service experiences I've had in recent memory here in NYC, at the hands of this LBS. The grease monkey responsible said he’d replace the bearings in the hub for me, but now I'm somewhat regretting letting this mechanic even touch the wheel.
I'm concerned that having ridden the bike in that state may have damaged the cones or races? Anyone have an opinion based on experience?

The long version is more heinous; I just want to get some experienced mechanical feedback ASAP before I boogie over to the LBS.

I think the bearing surfaces will be fine. The balls were new and the grease clean. If the majority of the balls were the correct size, the weight distribution over 25-30 miles shouldn't damage the cones and races. (But let me know if I'm wrong. :-) )

As long as you had the majority of the balls being the larger and correct size, randomly scattered throughout the mix the smaller balls here and there don't count. They act as spacers and go along for the ride.

If the majority were smaller, or the balls were loaded with all the large ones in one zone and the smaller in another, or the larger ones were too large, then you could have problems. The operative here is could, because if there were a serious issue you'd have felt it as serious axle friction as you tried to adjust the hub, so odds favor all being OK once the correct are replaced and the hub adjusted.

BTW- I suspect that beyond the issue of mixed sizes (or maybe because of it) you loaded one ball too many into the hub. This causes the exact type of problem you describe.

As far as the shop is concerned, mixing of balls isn't rare. Shops keep these organized, but errors occur if for example a customer changes his mind and the clerk hastily replaces the balls in the wrong tray. \

I'd cut the shop some slack here, let them repack the hub and move on.

Pull out a really good magnifying glass or jewelers loupe and take a look at the cones and the races of the hub after you clean them out really well with solvent or alcohol. With magnification you'll be able to see the real story. A nice smooth track= OK. Pitting, galling, or a really deap track that is pushing a bunch of material to the side is bad news.

Thanks for the replies.

I carefully counted and recounted 10 bearings per side for the front hub before installing them.
Upon disassembly, when I saw the bearings were ‘stacked ‘, I tipped the assembly over and four bearings came out: two were larger and two were smaller. I didn’t mic them so I do not know if any were correctly sized, but I assume the larger ones were. After that I did not reassemble but took it to the shop. HOwever, when I installed the new bearings the races and cones looked very good, no pitting, scratches, corrosion, or errant metal, just some hardened grease.




No slices of slack are getting cut off here. I wrote that my post was the ‘short’ version.

The long version includes the following:

I'd just read Sheldon Brown’s treatise on ball bearings (and no, I will not hold all mechanics to Sheldon’s high standards, nor is he the only authority on how to do this stuff) nonetheless, there’s a threshold of mechanical competence, customer service, and courtesy to be expected from a shop that is taking one’s money in exchange for products/services. I came to the store with a sample of each of my 25 year old front and rear bearings for size matching. Both bearings were shiny: the rear 1/4” bearing was from inside the freewheel side of the hub where it was protected from contamination and thus was very shiny and looked brand new.
The grease monkey put the eighteen new rear 1/4” bearings in a little Ziploc baggie, and then tossed my old bearing in with them. I was like: "wait a minute why’d you toss the old bearing in there, I’ll never be able to tell it apart?" He replied ‘old bearings are dull’ so I’ll be able to find it. Well, that’s not the case. All the bearings looked exactly the same and I’d need an electron microscope to find it (postscript: mic’d one old 1/4” bearing today at 0.235”). Sheldon was telling me that there’s absolutely no sense in disassembling a hub and reusing old bearings….and that if a bearing falls on the floor it is not worth time or contamination risk of reusing it: I felt the grease monkey was careless. There’s a 20 to one chance the old bearing is now in my hub with the new bearings. But I told myself, it’s an older bike, and although it grates against my notion of competent mechanical practice, don’t be anal, it’s just one bearing, let it slide Lovegasoline .... when I should have told the grease monkey to pitch all those bearings in the trash and sell me 18 new bearings.

Then the grease monkey said to just give him $10 for the 38 bearings (18 @ 1/4” and 20 & 11/64). I’d also bought a tube of grease. No receipt. I was thinking to myself, that’s an incredibly inflated price for bearings, they can't cost that much. I’m in dirt bag mode at the moment and money is very tight. There’s plenty of LBS here. I felt ripped off, but I said to myself (uncharacteristically) 'let it slide, don’t sweat it'. I just wanted to get back to putting my bike together. I should have demanded a receipt, but I let that slide too.

When I brought the wheel back I asked another mechanic how much they charge for bearings and he said something like a nickel each: that $10 was way overcharged.

To recount my experience at this LBS:
a) I was given the wrong sized bearings.
b) The bearings I was sold were contaminated with my old worn out bearing.
c) I was ripped off.

…and, cut to today:

d) On Friday when I brought the wheel in, the grease monkey took my name and number and said he’d call me this weekend when the wheel was done. I never got a call. So, having to run errands with the bike tomorrow, at about 6:45 PM (just after my post) I went to shop: the wheel was done, the grease monkey was not working. I got the wheel.
e) When I got home, I discovered the quick release skewer, which I deliberately placed on the wheel, was missing. I just called the shop and asked them to look for it. Still waiting and I'm going to head back over there with my Colt 1911 government. (Kidding on the Colt).

f) Shop never called back. So I went back there with my quick release rear wheel skewer so they'd know what they're looking for. They looked and couldn't find my skewer. They gave me a used replacement one, said it would be the right length for my front wheel. Got home, put it on and .... it's too long, the rod punched thought the end cap by 1/4" so I have these sharp threads ready to snag on stuff. I'll have to head back there tomorrow for replacement front skewer #2. What a huge waste of time this has been.

I’ll get a skewer and then hopefully never have to rely on the services of this LBS again. I fell victim to convenience, as it is only a few blocks from my home and they keep late hours.
I’m a NYC’er, like many here I can be outspoken and even confrontational when the need arise, but I was surprisingly mellow and cut these guys slack the whole time even when I was deeply displeased with their service. Sure everyone is entitled to make a mistake.
My cutting them slack was the only injustice here. They offered me careless, indifferent, and unprofessional service.



PS: Then there's the Park cone wrench model #DCW-4, a little POS stamped non-hardened toy (not tool) that another LBS sold me last week for $9.25 w/tax. It is getting returned and I felt like a complete idiot buying it, but was thinking lack of a cone wrench might be a contributor to my hub issues. I thought long and hard before buying that 'tool'. I've got a Snap-On roll cab filled with tools of various manufacture, all of them quality tools. It's shameful what this other store sold this cone wrench for. The store up-thread didn't even sell cone wrenches. And the store I bought the cone wrench from didn't stock spoke wrenches.


PSS: It's is time to seriously find a quality bike shop in NYC and also a master mechanic.

Rant Mode OFF.

There is nothing wrong with the Park DCW series of cone wrenches. They are perfectly fine and much better than many other brands of cone wrenches aimed at the home mechanic. If you want a really high quality cone wrench then go to the pro bench cone wrenches that Park sells. If you think the park DCW wrenches are bad try using the Avenir quad-sided wrench...

You got slightly overcharged for the DCW, as they are much cheaper online but that will be the case for any LBS -they have higher expenses as a brick & mortar business than an e-buisiness.

It sounds like you have a crappy LBS. Find another one. My LBS charges me between $.04-.06/bearing depending on the size. If you want to get serious about wrenching on bikes then buy them in packs of 144 and get a bag of the 4 or so popular sizes and be done with it for a while. It'll cost you $20 for the whole lot if you buy the Pyramid ones online.

And also, don't take everything Sheldon said like he was god's own bike-mechanic on earth when he was alive. He was a man and he was wrong about some things. Especially do not take his advice about how to break in a brooks saddle...

True I haven’t used it, but it appears not too ergonomic, looks uncomfortable to crank on (although I understand it’s not a tool to be used by an ape), and seems way overpriced for what it is. Now that my wheels are done and I have the time to shop it out, I’ll buy a better version of the cone wrench either online or used. I’ll start doing the same to gather essential tools in preparation for other stages of the bike's overhaul.

I fully admit to, and assume responsibility for, the large part of this bad experience that was my own doing: poor preparation (deficiency of tools and time slot), time pressure (wanting to get some riding in over the holiday weekend), and laziness (failure to completely disassemble the hubs after they first rode tested loose). I just hadn’t completely committed to the job so I wasn't 100%. Rushing was the primary culprit… I didn’t allow ample time for the work including 'sh|t happens’ scenarios. I transferred my impatience into all aspects of this job, and it manifested itself everywhere, including buying a tool I did not want to own. Brings to mind ‘Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance’ and the notion that one build’s their own mind (and problems) into the machine.




Yeah, it’s a mediocre place at best. Most important is to find a local mechanic, whose skills I trust, for the inevitable times where I’ll need to draw on his expertise. I was reluctant to go to this LBS, but then I though to myself ‘what can possibly go wrong with buying a couple dozen bearings?' After the fact, I did see Bike Tools Etc. selling lots of 100 bearings for roughly $5.


Agreed.
See below quote pulled from my previous post [emphasis added].


Btw, my Motorbecane came with a nice near mint Brooks Champion B66 seat (the one with springs). This seat must be 25 years old but doesn't look or feel broken in. The leather is in fine shape. I'm reluctant to undergo the gothic oil rituals for break-in. Also, when I first received he bike did a light polish with some black shoe polish later realizing it contained silicone.


Thanks for your insights Amesja.


PS: I may need some special tools for the BB (French, Swiss, English?) and pedals. Do you know off hand what tools would be needed for this bike? Would the Classic and Vintage forum be a better place to field those questions or is there plenty of cross fertilization between the two forums?

Judging by your name and comments, I'm assuming you work on your own cars. A bike is NOT a car. Any flimsy little tool will work for adjusting your hubs because you're never going to put much force on it nor does it need to be ergonomic for your hands. I personally would have just kept the cone wrench you already had.

BUT, now that you already returned it, you can pay a few bucks more for a quality tool. There are a couple tools that you can cheap out on, but other places that you really should have a quality tool.

As I'm sure you're aware, that bike shop is total crap, those mechanics should be fired

A cone wrench is something that is used by the average home mechanic a couple times a year at most. It takes about 4 seconds to use it and then it is done. I really don't understand the issue with the Park DCW series.

DCW stands for Double-Sided Wrench. It's a multi-tool, not an ergonomic single-sided wrench with a padded handle. Park makes those too. Those are SHOP tools and the DCW is a Home or pack tool. Yes, it is lightweight -that is because it is aimed at the rider who may have this in his tool roll. Many bicyclists spend hundreds of dollars trying to shave fractions of ounces from their bikes. Why would they want to carry around a super heavy bench tool in their road kit?

There are 4 DCW wrenches. If you look at the product line you see that the 13, 14, and 15mm wrenches are all doubled and in different combinations. That is because on many bikes the cone flats are the same size so you need two 15's or two 14's to work on the cones. If you buy one of each DCW-1,2,3, & 4 you pretty much cover every possible combination by only buying 4 wrenches. If you want to cover every bike with the single-sided benchtop tools you are going to have to buy about 12 wrenches -the full set costs $57 at Amazon and you will have to buy it TWICE to make sure you have doubles. These Park wrenches are about the nicest cone wrenches you can buy. The DCW are probably the nicest as far as the double-sided wrenches are concerned Neither are not Snap-on quality but they aren't going to cost you $40/wrench either. Snap-ons are SUPER over-priced but you are buying a NAME when you buy those tools as well as the delivery driver service. Park != SnapOn but it is probably the top of the line when it comes to bike tools with a full-line of products. Most of their tools are reasonably-priced as well.

I also work on my own autos and motorcycles (which I race so I do a lot of wrenching on them and have to put my own life on my abilities at time because of that. I'm also a master electrician and have turned wrenches for a living my entire life. I appreciate good tools and I also appreciate tools that don't break the bank.

In the end it is not the tool that is most important but the mind behind that muscles that is operating it. It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools. A skilled person can use just about anythign to get anything done. It'll be a bit harder or take a little longer but give me some metal stock, some saws and files and a torch with some oil to quench it and I can make any tool I need. Often it is just easier and more time-saving to go to Amazon and order what I need or go to my LBS if they have it (many don't carry the more advanced tools anyhow -that's why sometimes I will have to make something rather than wait for something to be delivered).

There is always the hardware store or Home Despot for generic tools -or Harbor Freight for cheap tools one isn't going to use many times or to modify to make a bike tool if necessary. I don't own any Snap-on tools at the moment. They are pretty nice but way more expensive than what they are worth. A tool isnt of any value if you can't afford to use it because you spent your whole budget on the tool and have none left for buying that which it was designed to work on.

Awesomejack
I’m not a professional or automobile mechanic. More experience with motorcycles and machinery.
As for username, I’ve always though of a different type of LOVEgasoline (not petroleum based, although that as well).


Amesja.
I’m not a tool snob but seek both value and functionality in tools. I have a wide spectrum of tools, from the first Craftsman mechanics toolset bought as a teenager on up, along with some dogs in there as well. I have machinery bought new, and 65 year old machinery built like a tank, bought for practically nothing, and rebuilt that will last another 50 years. I do own Snap-On and equivalent quality tools but I’m pleased to say I’ve not bought a single one new (wouldn’t be able to afford it) but bought them used in smokin’ deals mostly on eBay back in the day when eBay was a somewhat different resource than it is currently. I’ve been fortunate to assemble a toolset which represents both value and quality, although going this path required time and patience, both of which I've had.

The point is a.) my current economics and b.) $10 paid for the stamped non-hardened DCW-4, which seems like overpaying for the instrument I got (reminiscent of an OEM tool from a glove compartment kit). I have no doubt it’s functional, but at $10 it’s no value. I don’t have a need for a portable cone wrench, as I can’t envision doing a roadside hub overhaul. If I can get my tools at half price I can have twice as many tools and do twice the work. I have the luxury of time.


-Is it imperative to have two cone wrenches each size? Can the job not be done with a single wrench, working on one side of the hub at a time, with patience (cone wrench/cone, metric open end wrench/locknut?


-I’ll be doing pedal maintenance shortly: can a 15mm pedal wrench be used as a 15mm cone wrench and/or visa-versa? My understanding is a pedal wrench gets yarded on more than a cone wrench so needs to be beefier. Is the business end thickness any different?

That's my method. I didn't know there was any other way! :-) I generally leave one cone/nut in place on the axle to save time and keep the spacing correct (out of laziness).

If the pedal wrench can slip in on the cone with the lock nut in place, go for it, but there's a good chance it's too thick. But the cone wrench might not be bulky enough to wrench a stubborn pedal and the faces can be easily damaged. Don't ask me how I know this.

a few points:
-FBinNY is very gracious. No slack should be granted to those animals I'd go back to that shop, mostly to throw a dramatic hissy fit. Don't demand a refund, but make certain you get your skewer and a cone wrench for your trouble.
-not all shop-drones are talentless hacks, but many (most?) are. When dropping off a wheel or whatever for service, it is best to leave everything off that's not required for the repair. Tire, tube, strip, skewer, cassette... otherwise, there's a solid chance you'll lose something needlessly.
-the only fault of the dcw is the price; park dominates the tool market for bikes in the US, so you pay a premium for the name. fwiw, there have been a few times on the trail and one time on the road that i'd wished i'd brought some cone wrenches. Not for an overhaul, but for anb adjustment.

your questions:
1- depends on your hubs. i'm mostly a shimano guy, and i have 2x15mm, and one each of every other size.
2- i have used a pedal wrench as a cone wrench, but i'd prefer not to. for most of my pedals, a 15mm open-end snap-on fits and works fine; many pedals need something narrower. working on pedals with a cone wrench will likely eff the cone wrench up if you got a stubborn pedal

in closing, while not infallible, Sheldon towers over all of us at bikeforums as far as being an interweb bicycle guru goes.(exceptions: soaking a brooks, loctite on spokes, any others?)

-rob

The Park tools are not "stamped" but laser-cut tool steel as far as I know. The finish is "phosphate" which is pretty impervious to rust while still give a good feel which is something I can't say to the highly-mirrored finish of many "high end" tools. Those Vandium chrome finishes are slippery as hell the minute you get the greasy. I really do prefer the phosphate grippy surface of the Park wrenches.

Harbor Freight tools (Pittsburgh) have a nice mirrored-finish chrome coating these days. that doesn't make them high-end tools (although I think that Pittsburgh tools are every bit the equal of the K-mart Crapsman tools these days.);

I've used the Park tools quite a bit and feel the metallurgy is quite good and saying they are 'stamped glove-compartment tools" does not do them justice.

As for how to use a cone wrench: you can sometimes get away with only using one wrench but it is often the easiest to adjust hubs in the bike. For this it requires two wrenches. Sure you can mess around adjusting the tension on a vise but unless you have a vertically-mounted vise it is hard to get the tension just right when the wheel is not in the frame.

MNBikeCommuter,
I'm with you there and will let necessity (thrift) be my guide. Thankfully my pedals came off like butter (see below). But, if I start groveling and scavenging, no doubt I'll be schooled in seized pedals, BB's, and the like.

Amesja,
Thanks for the tips.
My greatest general peeve for tools is the size markings, often miniaturized unreadable micro etched or stamped numerals. Yes, many tools are familiar by profile, but invariably when I need to read the sizing, it's dim lighting, awkward positioning, and urgent grasping. If one is going to place markings on the tools, make them real-world readable. Cones, rods, and lenses would be grateful.


Surreal,
Thanks for the head's up: the Snap-On 15mm wrench indeed works perfectly on my current 25x year old French pedals which fortunately were not over torqued.
Is adjusting cones an occasional occurrence that would warrant packing cone wrenches in an emergency tool kit?
Yeah, I just need to get a better replacement skewer (without threads poking out) and I'll have completed my bizz with this LBS. Whether it was a scam, incompetence, or a little of both is hard to say. Vent yes, but no need for me to go postal in there. Look how well behaved I've been and my reserves of restraint: I haven't even posted the business name.
And, I now have my hubs done (until I do the freewheel) and I have the time to buy cone wrenches more in tune with my budget (even if it's the same endlessly fascinating laser cut, phosphate finished, non-hardened, doubled ended, lightweight for carrying, highly regarded, yet slightly overpriced, Park wrench).



I'll post a pic of this bike and some specific overhaul issues on a new thread. Thanks for all the great advice.

Gas-
I'd say that there is no need to bring cone wrenches with you on rides, unless you're touring. The times I had wished for cone wrenches on a ride were on rides immediately after the earliest hub rebuilds of my career. I hadn't gotten the preload just right,and i'd needed to make adjustments, but there I was, without wrenches. Maybe bring them on the first ride or 2 after the rebuild, and then leave 'em home? (Or, just make sure you got the adjustment nailed before you go on anything beyond the 'round the block test-ride. That's my latest method.)

Please, bring on pics of the bike. Be forewarned(although I'm sure you've already heard this): an old french bike is liable to have some froggy components with unique threads and interfaces. You're BB, headset, rear hub(where the freewheel attaches), and pedals are all possibly "off" from typical threading. Just make sure you know what you got before you buy any parts to replace anything.

hth
-rob

ps- I hear ya about the need for tools that have more clear sizing labels on 'em.

Once you use the Park tools for a while the markings become pretty easy to read as the micro-etched markings fill up with grime and are pretty easy to distinguish. I've got bad eyes and carry around a 30x jewelers loupe everywhere I go on my keychain to see detail on things. I can't even read my vernier caliper without magnification. But the markings on the park tools are not hard to read for me. On a few of them I did take a sharpie and pre-grime the numbers with the ink and then wipe off the excess but that is usually unnecessary as they fill up pretty quickly. Also, once you work on things for a while the numbering is not even necessary as one can look at a fastener and look at the wrench and just tell if it fits or not. The only time that doesn't work is when a bike or whatever you are working on has mix & match fasteners between SAE/Metric, or god forbid, those stupid Whitworth spanner sizes.