WallbrownF

Okay...so...the pedals on the stock Genesis v2100 are plastic with a metal rod in the middle. I'm heavy, so I killed them. On the left, only the metal rod is left and it is bent. On the right, a little bit of the plastic is still there and I think it might be a bit bent. My question is if you have ever heard of a permanent pedal? This sounds ridiculous, but the the pedals on all of my other bikes are SOO easy to get off...and these just aren't coming off. I don't want to damage anything and I thought someone might have some helpful advice. I haven't tried a long pipe yet, but I figured I would ask first.



The left is bent more than the picture makes it look. Oh...and there seems to be some plastic in between the crank arm and the pedal. Weird.

AlphaDogg

How heavy are you? Maybe you damaged the threads on the cheap crankset.

...or maybe those clowns at xmart cross-threaded the pedals.

dsbrantjr

I am not certain what kind of tool you are using but a proper pedal wrench will make the removal job much easier. An ordinary adjustable wrench definitely won't cut it. You might also want to put some good penetrating oil (Kroil or PB Blaster are the best, WD-40 is useless) on the threaded part and let it soak for a while. A judicious application oof heat may also help. You do know that the left pedal has a left-hand thread, correct?

Once you get the pedals off MKS make some reasonably-priced sturdy metal pedals that you might consider as replacements.

gyozadude

Pedals get siezed in cranks all the time. The solution to getting the off is leverage and small, quick impacts, plus having a 2nd person holding the other side to prevent the crank from moving. If necessary, I've removed the crank from the spindle, used wood blocks to clamp the crank in a vise, and then get a pedal wrench with long handle onto the flats and tap the wrench with a hammer. Short, quick taps, not too hard at first. The impact quickly loosens even stubborn pedal shafts.

cny-bikeman

It is very rare that a pedal wrench is not sufficient to remove a pedal. A longer lever may work, but you need to use proper technique. As it's a bit hard to explain in print I thought I'd just find a video, but I got tired of trying to find one that properly explained what to do, so here goes.

1. If you anticipate difficulty due to corrosion, overtightening, age, etc. spray the pedal/crank interface with WD-40, PB Blaster or other penetrant and let sit.
2. Use a pedal wrench or a good quality, tight-fitting wrench and an extender bar if necessary so that it is 12-15" long.
3. Orient the crank so that it is pointed toward the front of the bike and level to the ground.
4. Fit the wrench onto a flat so that the handle is pointed toward the rear of the bike and the handle end is above the crank arm.
5. (next step can be done with the bike in a stand but you can usually exert more force with the wheels on the ground)
   Stand sideways to the bicycle, facing the crank arm. Place one hand on the wrench handle and the other on the pedal. Use rags to protect your hands if necessary.
6. Lean over so that you can exert your weight on your arms and press down with both hands. Be careful, as the pedal may break free suddenly.

If you still don't succeed, try the variation below for step #5, or of course the vise method above.

5. Stand next to the saddle facing forward. Reach through the main triangle and grip the opposite crank arm and place your other hand on the near crank arm.

cny-bikeman

Even inexpensive pedals in most cases will not bend from pedaling forces no matter how much you weigh, because it is your leg pressure, not your weight, on the pedal. Even pedaling out of the saddle does not put your full weight on the pedal, as the bike will rock from side to side, tires will absorb some of the stress, etc.

What WILL bend the pedal, and potentially stress the crank arms and bearings as well, is what I call the Roy Rogers method. Rather than reinvent the wheel I'll point you to Sheldon's page: https://sheldonbrown.com/starting.html where it discusses the wrong and right way to mount and dismount a bicycle.

WallbrownF

280lbs; this could be...

I used an adjustable wrench first before the tools I bought came in, then I used the pedal wrench and it still wouldn't budge.

I do know that the left pedal is left-hand threaded. So, the old adage, righty tighty, lefty loosey is backward. I don't think I can apply too much heat to the pedal because there seems to be a piece of plastic in between the pedal and the crank arm...which seems very weird. It would also be hard to soak the part because I'd have to take the crank arm off. It's worth a try, though.

I haven't tried this...I'll have to try this. I don't have a vise, but I may know someone who has one.

I wasn't doing that...I'll give this a try before the vise...

lol...I live in Portsmouth...the home of Roy Rogers...so why not use his method...thanks for the link.

cny-bikeman

I thought after I posted that maybe you or others did not know who Roy Rogers was, so that's handy! I did not know he was from Portsmouth - would not have guessed.

Bill Kapaun

Lay the bike on its side and put a couple drops of penetrating oil on the threads so that GRAVITY assists.

TAP (quick & light) a couple times with something hard to the crank end. You want to "vibrate" the oil into the nooks & crannies of the threads.
Repeat every 15-30 minutes 3-4 times.

FBinNY 

My technique for frozen pedals is very successful, and the few times it hasn't I've removed the crank, put the pedal in a vise, and used a cheater bar on the crank arm.

Here's how on the bike. BTW- you'll need a friend.

1- Put the bike in a corner with the pedal out and the front wheel against the other wall.
2- set the pedal to be removed in the forward horizontal position
3- set the pedal wrench so it comes off the top of the pedal (important) and goes back toward and beyond the BB.
4- arrange the crank arm to have both as close to horizontal as possible
5- have your friend stand on the pedal with a decent amount of weight (the wall keeps the bike from rolling
6- you stand behind your friend and put as much of your weight as you can on the pedal wrench. If you need more power step up onto the wrench very quickly.
7- warning when the pedal slips it could be hard to keep your balance, so keep a hand on the wall.

FBinNY 

Bad physics here. (I'm surprised at you)

If your weight is on the pedal, it's on the pedal (period). It doesn't matter if the bike is rocking, climbing, or doing whatever it does. Newton's 3rd law of motion always applies. If the pedal is supporting your weight, your weight is pressing on the pedal with the same force. And if you can somehow stand on a pedal while out of the saddle without it supporting your weight please check in with the folks at NASA.

The canard that the so called Roy Rogers mount is somehow harder on pedals continues to circulate, but it's no less a myth than Prometheus stealing fire from the gods.

BTW- pedals have to be built for more than just the rider's weight. There's a dynamic aspect with strong riders, who can exert some extra force, which of course causes their bodies to lift against inertia, but if you watch the bouncing that sprinters suffer, you'll see what I'm describing. Then in hard climbing at low RPM many riders use their cleats to pull up the rear pedal. That means their weight on the forward pedal will be equal to their weight plus the amount of force they're pulling up with (Ntns 3rd law again). So if you weigh 200# and are pulling up with 25#s of force, the front pedal is loaded with 225#s.

WallbrownF

Yup...we are getting a Roy Rogers museum on 2nd street.

That sounds like it will work.

I'll have my wife help me.


Yeah...I didn't buy this. I won it on facebook.

Thought that was a bit wonky myself, but I didn't want to say anything.

jyl

I don't see the problem with applying heat to the pedal-crank junction if you have to. So what if the plastic gets a bit melted. The pedal is broken, the plastic is scrap.

BTW if the pedals both broke, I might be concerned that some other part of the bike will break. While you're riding it. Ouch?

FBinNY 

To the OP,

When you get the pedal off, here's info for deciding on it's replacement.

Pedal spindles (axles) are made of a variety of steels and also of Titanium, which I'll simply rule out for your needs. The stength of the spindle depends on the type of steel, and a few design considerations.

Cheap pedals are made of carbon or low alloy steels, which are OK for most people, and have the advantage of bending before snapping. This is a plus as long as they hold up because a broken pedal is never fun. Better pedals use a boron steel alloy which imparts more strength, and the best pedals use Chrome-molybdenum (CrMo) or similar alloys which can be heat treated for high strength. At your weight I'd only use a CrMo spindle.

Then there are design considerations, the most important of which is the location of the inboard bearing (the one near the crank). Since the spindle has to step down in diameter you're best off with the bearing farthest from the crank. This allows for the larger diameter to extend farther out increasing strength against the bending moments pedals produce.

There are a number of decent pedals out there, so look for the basic features I mentioned, and see what your options are. Look also for a cast/forged aluminum body, and get the narrowest pedal that's wide enough to be comfortable. The reason I suggest a narrower pedal is it keeps you from moving your feet outboard which increases the bending stress on the spindle.

At your weight, you'll have trouble with pedal and bottom bracket life, no matter what you do, but you should have no problem getting pedals that wear out rather than bending or breaking.

cny-bikeman

Sorry, FB - I may be wrong but I don't think so. When pedaling the crank is rotating, so the force applied to the pedal is not at a single point in the rotation. In addition, at essentially all times a significant amount of the force being applied is immediately (close enough) transferred elsewhere through the frame and powertrain. Newton's law is indeed equal and opposite, but not only at one point of reference - it carries throughout all the mechanicallhy connected parts of the bike. Finally, I would need to see the measurments somewhere that a cyclist is able to exert 125% of body weight on a pedal. I did a little research and could not find a source that measured force at the pedal to be greater than 150 lbs.

With the RR mount/dismount the pedal remains in one place and the full riders weight (minus some of the same give of tires, etc). is applied to the pedal at one point in the rotation and likewise the crank. The repeated application of that same force, with the pedal and crank in the same orientation, does indeed create more stress than riding, especially as some people tend to almost "jump" onto the pedal when mounting the bike.

My conclusion about the RR method is not a random opinion, nor I did not learn the "canard" from someone else. I came from empirical evidence, observation and deduction. In my long tenure as a mechanic I saw many, many loosened left crank arms and bent pedals, and many fewer right side ones, even if I eliminated those where the pedals showed evidence of impact from too-tight left turns. I came to my own conclusion after seeing the left pedal and crank problem, seeing people using that mount/dismount method, and putting the two together. I found it was predictable that persons with those problems were heavier and used the RR method. . If you can provide an alternative explanation for my observaition (and one I'm sure other mechanics have noticed) I'm open to it.

p.s. Hard to tell exactly, but to me it looks as if the left pedal shaft is bent downward when at the bottom of the stroke. When one is pedaling the pressure on the pedal is actually pretty low at that point in the stroke, but when doing the RR mount.... I'm not sure the right is bent at all.

FBinNY 

Let's start with the physics first. The stress within an element is constant through the element until countered by an alternate force. Picture the rope -made of various ropes knotted together- in a tug-o-war. The tension in the rope is uniform through the length, regardless of the changes in rope material or thickness. The same applies to the pedal, the stress is equal to the weight or driving force applied. It doesn't matter if the bike is moving or static, (though if there's acceleration, the amount related to accelerating the pedal itself is subtracted). The face that the spindle is rotating, doesn't change the amount of stress, just the direction. What actually happens is analogous to if you stuck a fence post in the earth, and tried to bend it, but instead of just pushing from one side, walked around it as you leaned into it. This doesn't change the strain on the post (it's the same force) but it does change the direction, which is the best way to loosen it. Now you can understand the stresses of the pedal/crank interface (not within the pedal), and why pedals can loosen so easily.

As to your anecdotal evidence, I can only speculate. There is greater load on pedals when they're stood on (rotating or not), and if the pedal is always stood on at 6 o'clock it'll always be in the same direction. But we're talking about a very small percentage of time use. In flat areas or with relatively weak riders this may be disproportionate to the overall stresses, but if someone routinely horses up steep hills or sprints, the stresses will average out. In any case I'll further speculate that only cheap pedals were breaking, and not ones with CrMo spindles.

BTW- I've broken (more than) my share of pedals and cranks over the years. With no exception they've all broken downward while the crank was forward, which isn't the direction that standing on them at 6 o'clock would predict.

If you go to your reference Brown mention of why cowboy mounts are problematic, you'll see he doesn't mention pedals only the side stress on wheels from leaning the bike.

cny-bikeman

Still not in agreement:

1. Fence post is not an analogy, pedaling force is not against a fixed object (earth) which is why the force is nowhere near the weight of the rider.
2. I don't think my experience and observations about this issue are at the level of anecdotal evidence. I'm not insulted by the term - merely find it inaccurate. I can tell you that any shop will report that they replace far more left crank arms than right ones, and have more bent left pedals than right - still open to an explanation of that.
3. As I mentioned, the force at 6 o'clock when riding is actually minimal. The maximum would be from about 1:00 to 3:00 when pedaling, so that even if the crank/pedal had been fatigued from another cause it would be in that arc that it would tend to fail.
4. The actual time at 6 o'clock is small, but the amount of repetitions is not inconsequential for someone who goes short distances often (as was the case in the college community where I did most of my work). It occurs every single time the rider mounts or dismounts.
5. I did not refer at all to pedal spindles breaking, only bending - and the few that weren't bent straight down at 6:00 were mostly bent up at close to 6:00 (from pavement impact).
6. Sheldon is not omniscient (gasp!)

FBinNY 

I can't help that you're not agreeing. as to your points

1-My fence post analogy is only an analogy but it's apt to the situation. If you know what a free body diagram is I suggest you draw one and you'll see that it's the same for both situations. It's a question of point of obserrvation If you were sitting on the rotating crank arm, it would look exactly like you were bending a post while walking around it.

2- your observations are meaningful, but IME while more left cranks are replaced than right ones, they're mostly replaced because of failure at the spindle interface, not the pedal. I chalk that up to the fact that most right cranks have much larger hubs (centers) so the spindle area is buttressed to a greater degree. In face, despite seeing hundreds of cracked (there) left arms, I've only ever once seen a similar failure on the right.

3-5, as I said, and your reference to short haul riding bears out, you might see more bending if the start/stop stresses are disproportionately greater than when the bike is used heavily in hard hill climbing. So for a campus experience, I wouldn't be surprised to see the pattern you describe. If people climbed more or rode harder I'm convinced it would come out in the averages. Lastly if a pedal bends (for any reason except a crash) it's a sign of a cheap pedal. Decent pedals don't bend or break regardless of how hard they're ridden or often they're stood on. If they did, sprinting would be incredibly dangerous.

I'm not trying to convince you, so if you continue to believe that standing on pedals or "cowboy" mounts are harmful it's OK by me. But the simple physics are that standing on a pedal at any time is the same whether the pedal is moving or static, and the cowboy mount canard is just that. Certainly no harm will come of not using that mount, so go ahead and don't. But then again cowboy mounts are no worse than hard hill climbing, something that pedals are designed to handle.


BTW- for what it's worth, take a good look at the photo of the OPs pedal still in the crank, it appears to be bend at about 90° to the axis of the crank, or down at the front position, as would be predicted if bent from standing on a hill climb.

cny-bikeman

Nope, not trying to convince you, know you are not trying to me. I'm enjoying the mental exercise, but it's gone far enough.

BTW, if I somehow did not make it clear before I do feel that it takes a cheap pedal to fail - the high quailty ones are extremely strong and overbuilt for the stress they take.

For a person of the OP's weight certainly there are multiple reasons to mount properly, and a few for anyone regardless of weight - we'lll just leave it at that.

FBinNY 

I 100% agree that only crappy pedals fail. A minor quibble about the word properly. it implies that there's an improper way to mount, and my contention is that there really isn't, as long as it works for you. I had a friend who could mount by holding the bike in front of him and step over the saddle as he did an "unwheelie" He could also dismount over the bars using his front brake. Years ago Imastered the 2nd, nut never the first. But if it works why not?

gyozadude

1. Stress on the pedal axle can far exceed the static load of just the rider weight. Put some piezo meters on the deflection. It's MUCH higher. Go over a bump - there goes the stress again. F = m x a. Bumps accelerate mass and overcome gravity. Anything that must overcome gravity must exert force in -excess- of G force alone - hence greater than the weight of the rider.

2. More left cranks are replaced than right? Yes, I agree that's the case. But the root cause doesn't seem to be rooted in the roy rodgers mount/dismount on a bike. Most of it is due to poor service and inadequate torque on the cranks during re-assembly. But because the spider on the drive side is stronger, it is more forgiving and tolerant of loose-ness. But not the left that has less metal. Also, because the right spider is expensive to replace, fewer people choose to replace it. Self-selection.

3. Do not confuse Torque (Force applied radial over distance to drive the bike forward - a quantity of work) with Load on the pedal axle. At 6 o'clock, you can have the weight of the rider fully on the pedal, hit a bump, and that can be high stress on the axle. Doing a "Roy Rodgers" and hitting a bump with crank at 6 O'clock can be stressful on the axle.

4. I'm not sure what amount of time would make a difference, left or right side. If the bike is properly engineered with some over-design for stress, there is no wear in mounting the bike except at bearing surfaces like the BB bearings, the pedal bearings, the races and cups.

5. I have seen bent pedal axles. Usually on kids BSOs from dept. stores where the pedal failed altogether and there is a really thin, soft steel shaft there.

WallbrownF

What I thought was plastic, isn't plastic. It is in fact metal, but it looked like plastic. I'm afraid that my threads in the crack arm might be warped too bad to put another pedal in. I haven't gotten the pedal off yet, but I'm waiting on some penetrating oil. I think it would be better to just replace the crank arm.

I am also concerned about other things breaking on the bike. That is why I would like to give it a tune-up, when I know how...

The only source of heat that I have is a hair dryer.

There are a lot of pedals...perhaps you could give me an example of a good pair?

Maybe these...https://www.ebay.com/itm/bike-pedal-c...item1c27cacf8d
Or these...https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wellgo-Clipl...item4ab8f18f0b
Or these...https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wellgo-Clipl...item4ab8f1a4a4


I'm going to stay out of this...

FBinNY 

Step one is to remove your pedal. Since you're thinking of replacing the crank go ahead and remove it, and use the pedal in vise, and turn crank method to try to remove the spindle. If you save the crank you're that much ahead of the game.

As far as good pedals go, product keeps changing, so it's hard to answer. Budget is also a factor. But you're best bet might be a used pair of top end road pedals from people like Campy, Shimano or even Sun Tour which are sitting in corners all over the US having been removed as folks went clipless. Otherwise a good pair of mtn pedals from somebody like MKS. If you scroll back to my post you'll see that I gave you the key features to look for.

Lastly, as for staying out of the friendly debate between cny-bikeman and myself, that's probably a smart call.

WallbrownF

I don't have a vise, but I may know someone who does. I just got my penetrating oil today...

sk0tt

You could try some boiling water, either slowly pour some over the crank where the pedal screws in, or try and submerse it in a container for a minute or two.