mrrabbit 

Yeah, pretty good indicator you have a 6/7 or 7 setup. You'll need a new 8/9/10 freehub and then spacers and locknuts that'll finish it off to 40.5mm.

And when that is done, center-of-flange to end of lock nut dimension will be 47-48mm.

Question is, can you get a freehub that'll work? You may be in a bind in that regard.

Filing away at the splines runs the risk of contact elsewhere. I think a member here has done this before - might want to lurk around and bump this thread a little while until he shows up.

=8-)

ksisler

=8-) - Appreciate the confirm that it is an oldie but shortie. Over the last couple of days, I pulled the cogs off of several of my 7spd tandems which have the HF-0X series of rear hubs. All the bodies are short, but not exactly the same body as this wheel and not all exactly the same measurement (just at 2mm total variance). OLNs vary from 130mm to 145mm. None of them look modified or tampered with. Although it is hard to be sure, the production probably spans at least 10 years or more so some variation is expect-able.

I did a eyeball of the gap between the back of the large cog and the spokes and it would seem that there is a more than the gap from "more normal wheels". Even if I could move the large cog in 1/4" closer, I don't t think the RD would imperil the spokes. And since this is to be a heavy, conservative tourer with lots of opportunity for things to go wrong, I was already planning to put a nice large metal pie type pan spoke protector on it (apologies to those that thius would offend).

I'll look for posts about filing away the stops and lurk for more. Worse case I have already ordered up an extra set of Shimano 7-spd brifters to hold in reserve (only $30 for the new pair on Amazon with the factory cable sets which would run $30-40 by themselves).

Appreciate all the assistance.
/K

ThermionicScott 

Yep, that's definitely a 7-speed Hyperglide freehub. (Mine all measure about 31mm from the "stop" to the outer edge.)

New 13-34T "K" cassettes can be found online for as cheap as $21... how much do you need that 11T?

ksisler

Completely agree. As a fall back a few days ago, I ordered a new set of 7spd real Shimano BRifters and a 13/34 Shimano 7Spd cogset. Would have done a 14-34T but didn't see one in the 45 seconds it took to make it so. I'll do a 9spd fun the next time...as it seems I have most of the parts on hand ];-)

ThermionicScott 

Very cool. I don't think there's a 14-34, just a 14-32.

ksisler

All -

Last week made a decision to keep the 48-hole tandem wheels with the problematic freehubs for another 7spd bike / tandem.

Ordered and received two pair of Sun Ryno Lite 700C x 27mm 40-hole rims (very cheap right now and the oft mention minor qualty issues seem to have been resolved along with a change in the ERD from 612 to 611mm for the new 2013 version 6000). Also ordered and recieved two sets of Wheel Master Tandem 40-hole hubs (also very low priced right now) and found they seem really robust and well made (it will likely take a year to see how they actually hold up). As none of the on-line spoke calculator sites had the data on the new rim version or for these hubs, I completed the necessary measurements with digital calipers to determine the spoke lengths and ordered up enough Wheel Smith 2mm spokes to build the two pair of wheels. I forwarded appropriate database entries to the Spoke Calculator author. I'll post the measures here later today in a separate post..

/K

ksisler

Giving back; here they are with URL's to aid any others driving down the same road;

+ Sun Ryno Lite 700C x 27mm 40-hole rims, new 2013 version 6000, ERD = 611mm ;
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

+ Wheel Master Tandem 40-hole hub (front);
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

+ Wheel Master Tandem 40-hole hub 135mm, 8/9/10 speed freehub (rear);
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

+ Spokes (Wheel Smith);
Front wheels (298mm) (2 boxes of 50);
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Rear wheels, drive side (297 mm) (1 box of 50);
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Rear wheels, non-drive side (299 mm) (1 box of 50);
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Nipples (4 bags of 50);
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

+Tools (time to upgrade);
Nipple Driver (1 each)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

+Materials;
Newbaum's Cloth Rim Tape 17mm Box/10;
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Ronno6

I have done much "kitbashing" in getting 8.9.10 speed freehubs to fit into old Cannondale's 126mm rear dropouts, as I do not think forcing the dropouts apart on the heat treated aluminum frames to be a good idea. (though, many have done it without incident.)
I prefer to build the wheel from scratch using a rim with off-center spoke holes to reduce dish.
My best recently used a Bontrager Fairlane OCR rim,with holes offset 4mm, a Shimano 6500 freehub, but replacing the FH body with a 7-speed Uniglide body. The Uniglide accepts the old 7 speed Hyperglide cassettes as well as the 8-10 with the wide spline and lockring. I then used an 8 of 9 cassette setup.
The resulting wheel allows me to use a 9 speed drivetrain and brifters, but fit into 126mm and has only about 2mm of dish. (of course, you need to remove 4mm of spacer from the drive-side axle, and I cannot remember how that was done. A thinner locknut if I remember correctly.)
I have also filed the wide tab on later model cassettes in order to fit onto the old Hyperglide body without any problem. You need to use a threaded on small cog for that one. You can then use 7 of 8 (which really doesn't gain u anything over a 7 speed cassette,) an 8 of 9 or 9 of 10 setup.
My personal favorite is using a Ritchey Zero system hub with the threaded axle, removing 4mm of non-drive side spacer, and lacing to a OCR rear rim. The Zero System hub moves the NDS flange closer to the center to reduce dish.
I also have used Shimaoo 6500 and 6600 hubs by removing the 4mm NDS spacer and redishing. We-re talking 2mm of rim movement, which only takes about 1/2 turn from each side.
I weigh 245# and have had no failures with any of these methods as long as spoke tension is correct and uniform.
Whatever you do, keep in mind that you probably will not have a shop at your disposal while on tour should you break down. Ti is a good idea to keep things as standard as available. Then you have the best chance of an on-route repair.

ksisler

[Partial QUOTE=Ronno6;15400599] ... I prefer to build the wheel from scratch using a rim with off-center spoke holes to reduce dish. My best recently used a Bontrager Fairlane OCR rim,with holes offset 4mm, a Shimano 6500 freehub, but replacing the FH body with a 7-speed Uniglide body. The Uniglide accepts the old 7 speed Hyperglide cassettes as well as the 8-10 with the wide spline and lockring. I then used an 8 of 9 cassette setup. The resulting wheel allows me to use a 9 speed drivetrain and brifters, but fit into 126mm and has only about 2mm of dish. (of course, you need to remove 4mm of spacer from the drive-side axle, and I cannot remember how that was done. A thinner locknut if I remember correctly.) ... removing 4mm of non-drive side spacer, and lacing to a OCR rear rim. The Zero System hub moves the NDS flange closer to the center to reduce dish. I also have used Shimaoo 6500 and 6600 hubs by removing the 4mm NDS spacer and redishing. We-re talking 2mm of rim movement, which only takes about 1/2 turn from each side. [/QUOTE]

Ronno; Great discussion. Although I can and have build a lot of competent wheels and a good number of good+ single and tandem frames, I am not at all ready myself to extend beyond the basic known configurations for rear wheels (skills, knowledge and experience shortfall on my part).

Could you expand and focus your experience or ideas toward how one would use these offset rims and altered spacing on the NDS of the rear hub to result in protentially less dished/stronger wheels for heavy use (loaded touring and tandems) with OLDs in the 135 to 145mm range? I guess this would be based on a potentially incorrect assumption that one could find offset rims in wider and higher spoke count variants...so if you know such to be true or not, would also appreciate info on same.

Thanks
/K

Ronno6

Could you expand and focus your experience or ideas toward how one would use these offset rims and altered spacing on the NDS of the rear hub to result in protentially less dished/stronger wheels for heavy use (loaded touring and tandems) with OLDs in the 135 to 145mm range? I guess this would be based on a potentially incorrect assumption that one could find offset rims in wider and higher spoke count variants...so if you know such to be true or not, would also appreciate info on same.

Thanks
/K[/QUOTE]

The selection of off center spoke line rims is pretty limited.

Velocity manufactures the Synergy rim in 32 and 36 holes (I have read that it is not the best choice for loaded touring applications,) and the A23 also up to 36°.
Harris Cyclery lists the Ritchey Trekking 700 OCR Comp rim in 36°, and they indicate that it is good for tandem applications.

The Bontrager Fairlane was a highly regarded touring rim, but has been out of production for some time and is pretty hard to find. I do not know what drillings it had been available in. Bontrager replaced the Fairlane with the Mustang and Maverick (I guess Keith really liked Fords!), both with OCB (off center spoke beds) but those, too are no longer made.

I have never researched the impact of wider OLD hubs as far as flange to center dimensions are concerned, but I would chance to say that they do not differ from those of 130mm hubs, as spacers are probably added to each side uniformly in order to maintain chainline specs. I do NOT know that for sure. As my focus has been centered on getting 8,9, or 10 speeds int the narrower 126mm spacing of the older Cannondales, chainline was never a problem.The cassette comes as close to the right dropout as possible, and the focus has mostly been on the non-drive side. (with the exception of using the 7 speed Uniglide freehub body on a 8-10 speed hub, which required removing of 4mm of drive side spacers.)
The whole idea of reducing dish, other than the OCR rims, would be the desire to shift the centering of the hub flanges, moving the non drive side flange towards the center (as in the Ritchey Zero System hubs, which I have never located in 36°) and/or shifting the drive side flange farther from the center. The second aim, of course, is limited by cassette stack height and chainline. If you find that 135 or 140mm OLD hubs have additional drive side spacers on the axle, you could achieve both objectives by moving spacers from the drive side to the non drive side, but you would need to move your crankset outward in order to maintain the chianline.
(And, now the disclaimer)
As I said, my endeavors have not allowed me the luxury of wider OLD specs, so it is possible that I may be off with some of my premises.
Basically, look for hubs that have the least differential between flange to center distances, and use an OCR rim if you can find one that suits your needs. YMMV

Bill Kapaun

I have no experience with tandem type hubs, but I wouldn't think they would add spacers to the DS.
Doing so would move the cogs away from the RDER.
Maybe someone with actual measurements can chime in?

Ronno6

That's true, of course.
But, if bottom bracket width does not increase, or the chainrings do not move outward, the chainline would suffer assuming (bad word, I know) the dropout spacing would increase symmetrically as widths increase.

Unless...................
I have a custom-built dedicated touring bike with a Phil Wood cassette touring tear hub which I believe to be 145mm. The cassette appears to be about as close to the RH dropout as my other wheels.
Is it possible that the builder made the frame with the required dropout spacing increase all on the non-drive side??

Now, there's a question for the framebuilders out there.

If that is the case, then rear wheels that are dishless would be possible given the appropriate dimensions.
Typical Shimano XTR 135mm rear hubs have a 12mm or so differential between the center distances of the flanges, so
Increasing the non-drive side spacing by 12mm would center a standard rim at 147mm OLD.
Of course, adding that much spacing to that side adds stress to the non-supported axle on that side.

Everything comes at a price.

Bill Kapaun

You use a longer BB cartridge/spindle to move the cranks out. You are only moving them about 5mm if comparing a 135 OLD vs 145 OLD. That's the width of 7 speed cog spacing.

I was doing some calculations with an RM-30 (cheap Shimano) and IIRC, using a 4mm off set rim, a OLD of 142 would have made a dishless wheel for my 9 speed.
I was contemplating spreading the drops on my 86 Rockhopper. Turns out I can "stuff" a 132mm wheel in there (I have a spacer kit, so I can play with things to 0.5mm. I did that on crutches and one useless leg, so I might be able to add to that a bit.
With my Velocity Synergy OC rim & RM-30 hub, I had a calculated NDS of 84.8% of DS tension.
Using my TM-1 and measuring 1/2 dozen spokes on each side and mentally averaging them, I came up with 83.3%. Pretty close for taking 2 approximate values.....
I actually finished the final truing/tensioning on that yesterday, so I may end up stuffing it "in" the bike today with no crutches and one weak leg. I probably won't bother trying to spread it anymore at this time, although I probably can see what spacers I "could" add. It's a bit pointless, since the wheel will be stronger than anything I plan to throw at it. (60 lbs.on the rear rack/baskets + my 215-235 lbs.) Maybe next time I service the bearings?

fietsbob

do the math, its the drive ratios that are the gears,

'Speed', not really how many pieces of metal with teeth on them are stacked up on the back wheel.

crank, with chainring, pulls chain, which turns wheel; wheel goes around and moves the bike, at a rate over time.

that is speed ..

vitesses, 'speeds' is something else, a hardware counts..

ksisler

Good inputs. Much appreciated, but I don't think I have a new way ahead compliments of off set rims due to availability issues and spoke count limits for those that are available...

- As to the ponder that popped up regarding differences between regular rear hubs and tandem rear hubs.
-- Having a good bit of experience with the 2bike hubs (Maxicar, Phil, Shimano HF's, Hayden, and a few others), I would say they are not significantly different build wise, save more spokes, a bit heavier construction and sometimes larger or more bearings. The math that works for hubs in general works for them also. So for either, careful measuring will get the right spoke lengths the first time...otherwise its reorder spokes and wait.
-- Of course planning for NDS disk or drum brakes is there to be dealt with. But generally one buys the hubs with the brake in mind and the OLD required. Then the hub arrives spaced correctly to the build planned for. The measuring for spokes is the same as a non-tandem hub. Hasn't really be an issue to my knowlege/experience.
-- I built a couple of 2bike frames with 160mm OLDs (separated by some 25 years) and when fitted with the appropriate wheels and longer bottom brackets spindles (not that difficult to find), they basically work fine. The dish is a bit nicer/better than a traditional 145mm OLD but either would seem to be good enough for most any usage. Can't say I would take the energy needed to advocate one over the other, but I might argue against 130mm or narrower for a tandem, but 135mm can work for most needs if well executed. Will admit to building a couple of 2bike frames early on with 125mm old (early bolt-on Phil hubs, Weinman A-129 48 hole rims, DT 14g spokes) before I "knew better". In the 2-3 years I kept in contact with the original owners, the wheels were unphased by their diminuitive axle lenghts.
/K

dddd

"...Worse case I have already ordered up an extra set of Shimano 7-spd brifters to hold in reserve (only $30 for the new pair on Amazon with the factory cable sets which would run $30-40 by themselves)..."

Do tell, the lowest price for new brifters I find on Amazon is around $58.

ksisler

dddd; They were $30-34 when I bought them with cables. Below is the URL I used, but they are $28.80 a set but looks like that is sans cables now at the same URL. There are multiple vendors selling several models of the Shimano brifters on Amazon with the $30-ish pricerange as well those separately mountable units Nashbar retails in the same general price ranges. Suspect the secret to searching is to not search for brifters as most of the sellers don't call them by that name. Remember to check the color you need as they come in all black or in black with silver highlights. Anyway; they are there; so if need 'em go get 'em! /K

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Bill Kapaun

When getting new shifters (not brifters) a year or so ago, I noticed the prices seemed to change every couple days.

ksisler

General catagory is "Dynamic Pricing". Think the Walmart commercial of the animated guy with the Zoro-like sword going around slashing prices... except at computer speed. One of the main technologies behind such is known as Data Analytics which processes the data streams feeding back from the sales transactions. But tech aside you can watch it happen on Amazon... someone will put up a bike component at a very low price. As long as no one or an insignificantly small number of folks buys it, the price will stay low. But if folks start buying it, the price will start to sneak up a few dollars at a time until it gets to the price the seller really wanted to sell it at. You can see the same dynamic games being played with shipping costs. You will also see multiple very different ads from apparently different sellers will different prices and shipping. Its very like that the different sellers are just virtual stores created by the main seller to give an impression that some of them having a bargin sale in contrast to the others. Not really..they are just playing to the well understood fact that many folks will impulse buy if the pricing is inducive. Basically all of this is what happens when a profit driven business figures out marketing in the computer age and leverages it to separate you from your money. If you are paranoid, call it SkyNet. But smart shoppers with honed skills can reverse the marketing mavens sneakiness to consistantly snag bargins in a real sense.

/K