Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Would self-aligning bearings have any use in bikes?

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Would self-aligning bearings have any use in bikes?

Old 05-06-13, 09:44 PM
  #1  
krfkeith
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Would self-aligning bearings have any use in bikes?

I'm specifically referring to things like this: https://www.skf.com/group/products/be...ngs/index.html

Would those type of bearings provide any sort of advantages for bicycles?
krfkeith is offline  
Old 05-06-13, 10:14 PM
  #2  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 35,964

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4366 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 31 Posts
Not really. The angular contact bearings traditional to bikes are forgiving of the slight misalignment that may occur on some bike parts. And those components that used paired commercial (cartridge.aka sealed) bearings are usually built accurately enough to work fine with traditional bearings.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 05-06-13, 10:27 PM
  #3  
krfkeith
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Are angular contact bearings the ideal sort for bikes then?
krfkeith is offline  
Old 05-06-13, 10:33 PM
  #4  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 35,964

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4366 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 31 Posts
Originally Posted by krfkeith View Post
Are angular contact bearings the ideal sort for bikes then?
Ideal is a good way to start a debate. The beauty of the old fashioned cup/cone angular bearings is that they're forgiving of imperfect manufacturing,tolerate abuse, and are very field serviceable.

Radial contact bearings are also excellent, but call for closer manufacturing tolerances.

It isn't a matter of better or worse in an absolute sense, but choosing a bearing appropriate to the design, and manufacturing precess of each component.

If you go back to that skf catalog you'll find all manner of bearings, including many specialized designs made to address all kinds of unique situations. None are better or worse, just different.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 05-06-13, 10:37 PM
  #5  
krfkeith
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
That is a good point! I did not mean to start a debate! lol

I guess a better way to put it is with two questions:

1) What is the norm for current manufactured bikes?

2) Ignoring serviceability, which is more efficient?
krfkeith is offline  
Old 05-06-13, 11:33 PM
  #6  
Jeff Wills
Insane Bicycle Mechanic
 
Jeff Wills's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: other Vancouver
Posts: 9,551
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 681 Post(s)
Liked 321 Times in 212 Posts
Hoo boy...
__________________
Jeff Wills

Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..
Jeff Wills is offline  
Old 05-06-13, 11:47 PM
  #7  
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Posts: 11,736
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 108 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
[QUOTE=krfkeith;15597065]That is a good point! I did not mean to start a debate! lol

I guess a better way to put it is with two questions:

1) What is the norm for current manufactured bikes?[quote]
Most parts are designed with thrust surfaces for lateral location, thus obviating the need for self-aligning or angular contact. The tolerance-range used tend to be in the middle-range as well. Larger-clearances aren't needed as for high-RPM motors. Nor tight-clearances with thick grease for high-load applications.

The only bearing actually needing angular-bearings would be the headsets. However, the best bearings used here are roller-bearings for high-loads. Stronglight headsets with their roller-bearings tend to last 10x longer than the ball-bearing models. Along with replaceable bearing-races makes it a great design in headsets. Several decades later when manufacturers went to integrated headsets, they used a design very similar to the Stronglight.

Pretty much all usages of bearings incorporate two widely-space bearings. Traditionally cup & cone bearings were used. When upgraded to cartridge-bearings, the dual-bearing designs pretty much guarantees the shafts are always perpendicular to the bearing surfaces. You simply cannot shove the shaft out the 2nd bearing if it was out of alignment.
DannoXYZ is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 01:38 AM
  #8  
krfkeith
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
So needle bearings are good for the headset? I guess that makes sense, I never thought about that.
krfkeith is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 04:18 AM
  #9  
dabac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,546
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1035 Post(s)
Liked 231 Times in 171 Posts
Originally Posted by krfkeith View Post
That is a good point! I did not mean to start a debate! lol

I guess a better way to put it is with two questions:

1) What is the norm for current manufactured bikes?

2) Ignoring serviceability, which is more efficient?
Norm depends on price range. There are exceptions, but basically the cheaper the bike, the more likely you are to encounter traditional cup & cone bearings. Higher price tends to bring more cartridge bearings with it.

Efficient is tricky. Cup & cone are more forgiving for production spread. Takes longer to assemble but you can use crappier stuff.
Cartridge bearings are faster to install, but you have to run production at tight tolerances.
A factory with good machines and high salaries would want to use cartridge bearings. Low salaries and poor machines, go for C & C.
Brand new cartridge bearings can have comparably high seal drag compared to cup & cone designs.
The big thing is that bearing drag is such a tiny proportion of overall drag to make the question entirely academic apart from the most extreme and clear-cut racing applications.

Serviceability is also a so-so thing. Sure, C & C can be disassembled, cleaned and relubed. That's fine as long as you aren't getting pitting and grooving. Those things can be definite showstoppers.
Cartridge, then it's a replacement job. Different designs reach different levels of user friendliness, but as long as I have the spares available, I reckon swapping bearings in my one cartridge bearing wheelset is about a 10-minute process.
But of course I'd find some reason to touch up spoke tension, clean & relube the pawls and whatnot while I'm still in there, which'd extend the process....
dabac is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 04:55 AM
  #10  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 7,716
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 751 Post(s)
Liked 287 Times in 178 Posts
Originally Posted by Jeff Wills View Post
Hoo boy...
Ha ha. Everything was going along fine, and then up pops the word "efficient"
Dan Burkhart is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 05:19 AM
  #11  
cny-bikeman 
Mechanic/Tourist
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 7,510

Bikes: 2008 Novara Randonee - love it. Previous bikes:Motobecane Mirage, 1972 Moto Grand Jubilee (my fave), Jackson Rake 16, 1983 C'dale ST500.

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 482 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
What's most efficient is riding instead of spending time on something that is a few hundredths of a percent contributor to drag on a bike.
__________________
There's no such thing as a routine repair.

Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

Please respect others by taking the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!
cny-bikeman is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 11:02 AM
  #12  
krfkeith
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
What's most efficient is riding instead of spending time on something that is a few hundredths of a percent contributor to drag on a bike.
I understand what you are saying, but don't you think responding in that manner was a little needlessly glib? I'm new to bicycles/cycling, but I find mechanics and mechanical engineering sorts of things very interesting in their own right. Moreover, I don't really think discussing theoretical questions and riding bicycles are mutually exclusive, it isn't a zero-sum game.
krfkeith is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 11:22 AM
  #13  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 35,964

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4366 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 31 Posts
Originally Posted by krfkeith View Post
I understand what you are saying, but don't you think responding in that manner was a little needlessly glib? I'm new to bicycles/cycling, but I find mechanics and mechanical engineering sorts of things very interesting in their own right. Moreover, I don't really think discussing theoretical questions and riding bicycles are mutually exclusive, it isn't a zero-sum game.
I suspect that you're getting facetious answers because you've asked an unanswerable question. There's no one superior, or more efficient bearing, except to say that ball bearings are better than plain bearings (or bushings). The key is suitability of the particular design and application, then quality of execution and finally and in reality most important quality of maintenance.

There are also some tricky, counter-intuitive decisions, for example most lubricants are chosen to maximize service life, not necessarily for least drag, so good maintenance usually comes at the expense of efficiency.

In any case, from best to worst case, the differences are so tiny compared to wind drag, and tire rolling resistance. Something like correct tire pressure has a far greater effect on efficiency than improved bearings.

In any case the so called "best" debate remains up in the air. Among top quality hubs, some have user serviceable angular contact bearings, and others have commercial bearings, mostly radial, and some angular. To date no one has demonstrated that there's a best among the best.

BTW- as a newbie (here) you need to know that your question isn't new, and for most of us there's a been there, done that sense to it. We're a bit jaded and tired of endless meaningless discussion about some niggly fine point that's already been discussed ad nauseum. Rather than be offended, or justify your question as worthy of discussion, you might take some time to do some research, here on the forum, or on the internet in general.

Speaking for myself, (I only ever speak for myself) I'm always willing to help someone who needs it, but much less willing to try to satisfy someones intellectual curiosity on some minor issue when there's already enough info, if he'll just make the effort to look.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

Last edited by FBinNY; 05-07-13 at 11:32 AM.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 11:29 AM
  #14  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,599

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,320 Times in 830 Posts
Conic needle bearings for headsets were better , though the stronglight ones were made for the puropse.
and assemble on the bike, not a sealed cartridge , Delta version added the O rings to the aluminum parts.
and are much flatter a cone, than the roller bearings used in automotive application.


Efficient for What? state the Goal ..
fietsbob is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 11:33 AM
  #15  
HillRider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 32,861

Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1671 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 530 Times in 397 Posts
Originally Posted by dabac View Post
Norm depends on price range. There are exceptions, but basically the cheaper the bike, the more likely you are to encounter traditional cup & cone bearings. Higher price tends to bring more cartridge bearings with it.
As noted, there certainly are exceptions. All of Shimano's hubs, including Dura Ace, and all of Campy's individually available hubs (limited to Record these days) use cup and cone bearings and these certainly aren't cheap or cheaply made.
HillRider is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 12:23 PM
  #16  
krfkeith
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I suspect that you're getting facetious answers because you've asked an unanswerable question. There's no one superior, or more efficient bearing, except to say that ball bearings are better than plain bearings (or bushings). The key is suitability of the particular design and application, then quality of execution and finally and in reality most important quality of maintenance.

There are also some tricky, counter-intuitive decisions, for example most lubricants are chosen to maximize service life, not necessarily for least drag, so good maintenance usually comes at the expense of efficiency.

In any case, from best to worst case, the differences are so tiny compared to wind drag, and tire rolling resistance. Something like correct tire pressure has a far greater effect on efficiency than improved bearings.

In any case the so called "best" debate remains up in the air. Among top quality hubs, some have user serviceable angular contact bearings, and others have commercial bearings, mostly radial, and some angular. To date no one has demonstrated that there's a best among the best.

BTW- as a newbie (here) you need to know that your question isn't new, and for most of us there's a been there, done that sense to it. We're a bit jaded and tired of endless meaningless discussion about some niggly fine point that's already been discussed ad nauseum. Rather than be offended, or justify your question as worthy of discussion, you might take some time to do some research, here on the forum, or on the internet in general.

Speaking for myself, (I only ever speak for myself) I'm always willing to help someone who needs it, but much less willing to try to satisfy someones intellectual curiosity on some minor issue when there's already enough info, if he'll just make the effort to look.
I do understand what you mean. I asked the original question because I couldn't really find anything on it specifically. I understand there is no one, single answer. Like I said, I asked more out of a desire to clarify. It's easier for me to tackle a project if I understand all the different options one has, and what the effects of these are.

I have done a little bit of research, and I didn't mean to try and suggest my question was unequivocally a worthwhile one. I don't doubt that there is a mostly negligible difference. I only asked because it's hard to find conclusive answers.
krfkeith is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 12:59 PM
  #17  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 35,964

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4366 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 31 Posts
Originally Posted by krfkeith View Post
I have done a little bit of research, and I didn't mean to try and suggest my question was unequivocally a worthwhile one. I don't doubt that there is a mostly negligible difference. I only asked because it's hard to find conclusive answers.
You didn't find conclusive answers for the simple reason that that aren't any. Once you get to a decent quality lever, it's more like a Coke vs. Pepsi debate, with a few Dr. Pepper fans to keep it interesting.

You speak of a project. If so, start by defining the needs and prioritizing them. Then factor cost and your capabilities maker an outline and that will point you toward the right answer (for you).
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 01:07 PM
  #18  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 7,716
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 751 Post(s)
Liked 287 Times in 178 Posts
I finally clicked the link and went in for a look. The line about being tolerant of shaft deflection and mis-alignment tell me there would not be an application on a bike I can think of. I think it's intended more for high load applications where the outer ends of the shaft are supported by the bearings and maybe a two ton roll of paper loaded on the shaft.
Dan Burkhart is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 04:16 PM
  #19  
davidad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,505
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 524 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 128 Times in 108 Posts
Originally Posted by krfkeith View Post
So needle bearings are good for the headset? I guess that makes sense, I never thought about that.
No, because they don't solve the problem on a road bike. Fretting damages the races. Read and learn grasshopper. https://draco.nac.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.13.html
davidad is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 04:21 PM
  #20  
davidad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,505
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 524 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 128 Times in 108 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I suspect that you're getting facetious answers because you've asked an unanswerable question. There's no one superior, or more efficient bearing, except to say that ball bearings are better than plain bearings (or bushings). The key is suitability of the particular design and application, then quality of execution and finally and in reality most important quality of maintenance.

There are also some tricky, counter-intuitive decisions, for example most lubricants are chosen to maximize service life, not necessarily for least drag, so good maintenance usually comes at the expense of efficiency.

In any case, from best to worst case, the differences are so tiny compared to wind drag, and tire rolling resistance. Something like correct tire pressure has a far greater effect on efficiency than improved bearings.

In any case the so called "best" debate remains up in the air. Among top quality hubs, some have user serviceable angular contact bearings, and others have commercial bearings, mostly radial, and some angular. To date no one has demonstrated that there's a best among the best.

BTW- as a newbie (here) you need to know that your question isn't new, and for most of us there's a been there, done that sense to it. We're a bit jaded and tired of endless meaningless discussion about some niggly fine point that's already been discussed ad nauseum. Rather than be offended, or justify your question as worthy of discussion, you might take some time to do some research, here on the forum, or on the internet in general.

Speaking for myself, (I only ever speak for myself) I'm always willing to help someone who needs it, but much less willing to try to satisfy someones intellectual curiosity on some minor issue when there's already enough info, if he'll just make the effort to look.
In regards to the bushing comment. High quality bronze bushings would be more than adequate for our use. A bike wheel is turning about 670 rpm at 60 mph and a track racer may hit a cadence of 200 rpm. Rolling resistance of our tires are more of a factor than the bearings.
davidad is offline  
Old 05-07-13, 09:22 PM
  #21  
Jeff Wills
Insane Bicycle Mechanic
 
Jeff Wills's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: other Vancouver
Posts: 9,551
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 681 Post(s)
Liked 321 Times in 212 Posts
Originally Posted by davidad View Post
In regards to the bushing comment. High quality bronze bushings would be more than adequate for our use. A bike wheel is turning about 670 rpm at 60 mph and a track racer may hit a cadence of 200 rpm. Rolling resistance of our tires are more of a factor than the bearings.
And at moderate-to-high speed, aero drag is the dominant force holding the rider back. One of the folks on the recumbents.com forum tested several wheels with a power meter to see which was fastest. The "winner" was a very cheap, ordinary wheel with wheel covers fairing in the spokes.

It's fun to build up a really high quality hub and spin it in your hands to feel the smoothness of the bearings. Whether this translates to real-world improvements in "efficiency", well
__________________
Jeff Wills

Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..
Jeff Wills is offline  
Old 05-08-13, 04:02 AM
  #22  
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Posts: 11,736
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 108 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by davidad View Post
No, because they don't solve the problem on a road bike. Fretting damages the races. Read and learn grasshopper. https://draco.nac.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.13.html
While they don't solve the problem, they extend the service-life of the headset by over 10x over ball-bearings. And the races are replaceable, so at that 10x longer service-interval, you just replace the lower bearing-race rather than the entire headset.

To give the OP more data on efficiency and following up on some other's post, here is where rider's energy is expended on a bike at various speeds:

Note that bearing and tyre-drag represents a smaller and smaller percentage of total-drag as speeds increase. That's because drivetrain-drag goes up linearly with speed while wind-resistance goes up to the square-power of speed and the power-required to overcome that wind-resistance goes up by the cube-power of speed. In order to go twice as fast, you need 8x the power to overcome the extra wind-resistance.

Most effective way to improve your power-output's efficiency is to combat total aero-drag: A*cD. With traditional bikes, one can improve A*cD by tucking in as low as possible. Even with trained cyclists, there's some loss of power-output, but is more than made up by the reduction in aero-drag. You can get even better reduction in A with recumbents, and total-drag can be only 50% of an upright bike. Once you've minimized your A as much as possible, you start playing with cD by using fairings. These aero mods will increase your speed for the same power much more than any improvement in drivetrain-drag.
DannoXYZ is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
patricio.montes
Bicycle Mechanics
25
02-08-19 09:38 AM
migrantwing
Bicycle Mechanics
0
09-20-16 08:51 AM
Johnny 831
Bicycle Mechanics
8
01-27-15 10:07 AM
ModeratedUser
Bicycle Mechanics
37
11-19-14 11:11 PM
Juan Foote
Road Cycling
2
03-23-12 10:18 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.