JanMM

Yep, it's a disc brake and it won't make the rim asplode.......

RubeRad

You mean like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZmJtYaUTa0
And this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhabgvIIXik

cruiserhead

Those are awesome!
Just the novelty factor is pretty darn cool
Wish I could find some of those and put it on a ssfg or classic steel frame.
So cool

Six jours

Wow. I am capable of about five percent of the stuff he can do. I wonder how many bones you have to break to get that good.

One thing that does have relevance, at any rate, are the scenes of him riding down steep dirt hills. Note how much he uses his brakes - apparently even superhuman bike handlers need to keep the speed down when underbiking in those situations.

LesterOfPuppets

Unfortunately he was paralyzed after an accident earlier this year.

Yeah, trials riders need really good brakes. Hydraulic rim brakes have been pretty common on trials bicycles since at least 1990, probably earlier than that, even, that's just when I took note of trials riding on bicycles.

ThermionicScott 

I never tire of those videos. I hear Martyn Ashton is doing handcycle races these days.

cyccommute 

Particulates that rain picks up from the atmosphere doesn't have a large enough particle size nor enough hardness nor high enough concentration to do damage to rims. It probably isn't large enough nor hard enough to do damage to the drivetrain where smaller particles do a lot of damage.

I agree that a gentle rain isn't going to move as much material as a downpour but a downpour also moves more dirt, gravel and rocks from the side of the road to the road surface than a gentle rain does. I see all the conditions that you see on the road as well. We have lots and lots and lots of sand bars on roadways all year long. And during the fall through to the spring we have just as much leave litter as you do, especially in metro areas where we have more hardwoods and fewer conifers.

I'm not saying that you don't have grit on the road...everyone does...I just don't understand how some Portlanders manage to blow through rims at a rate that is, honestly, 10 times that of what others experience. The rest of us ride in harsh conditions but I seldom hear someone from Milwalukee, for example, or even Seattle talking about going through rims in 1 to 2 years.

I bring it up because going from a rim mounted disc brake to a hub mounted disc brake isn't a much of an improvement as many make it out to be. The "improvement" is largely due to setup rather than anything fundamental. Both mechanisms work the same way and, if properly installed, are equally effective.

Even in wet weather, the supposed failings of rim brakes with aluminum rims (steel rims are a very different issue) aren't as great as many make them out to be. I have ridden in wet conditions with both rim and hub mounted brakes and both can experience a momentary lag when wet. But the lag is only momentary and, if you are aware of the issue, you make adjustments to compensate. Considering that the friction between the road and the tire is greatly reduced in wet conditions, a little lag is the brakes is hardly that important anyway.

The trade-offs that hub mounted discs ask for...need for stronger (heavier) frames and forks, a weaker front wheel, more difficult setup and installation, need for stronger clamping of the front wheel, hydraulic fluid, more difficult rack and fender installation, etc...just aren't worth the effort in my opinion for a slight improvement in wet weather braking. If the difference between rim brakes and hub mounted discs were as great as the difference between discs and drum brakes, I'd be in the first wave to accept them. But the differences aren't that great.

And, to go back to ryanbent's original question, that's the reason that people are resistant to accepting hub mounted disc brakes, especially for road bikes. There have been lots and lots of innovations in bicycle technology over the last 20 years that have been real improvements (and a few stinkers). Clipless pedals, threadless headsets, external bottom brackets, suspensions, etc., even indexed shifting, have been actual improvements that have solved real problems. I put hub mounted disc brakes into the stinker pile...much like the previous "improvement" to braking aka U-brakes.

...Okay, maybe not that bad. More like junk saver saddles.

gsa103

Actually, if you notice the second video has hydraulic disc brakes from Hope. They specifically went and put together a custom set of brakes because the rim Dura-Ace brakes in the first video didn't provide the level of control he wanted. They used Di2 climbing shifters since the standard brifters couldn't do the hydraulics (at the time).

rydabent

Another analogy would also come from the Coors in the mid 80s, clipless pedals rather than clips and straps. Time moves on and so do mechanical improvements like discs.

Six jours

Yes, Ryda, we all know you once went to a bike race. That's no kind of argument for disk brakes on road bikes.

LesterOfPuppets

When I was younger and lived in Portland I went through rims faster than now. Road grit conditions are similar over here but over there I did a lot more start/stop. I'd sprint for two blocks, then drop anchor for a stop light. Sprint for 4 blocks then get on the brakes again. I'd repeat this a lot everyday.

Now I'm a lazier, older man so don't do that kinda nonsense, so rims last longer. Seattle should be worse but downtown Seattle is harder and more dangerous to ride around in so fewer people are crazy enough to do it. Those that do ride downtown Seattle streets daily should go through rims really quickly because they have more steep hills than Portland does.

I know it's difficult to imagine but I think Portland has more opportunities to ride bike lanes with a thin film of wet silt than many other cities.

Sand bars can be worse on drivetrain, I've found, but sand usually doesn't affect rims as much as road silt does, sand seems to shed more quickly from rims and brake pads.

I lived in Flagstaff, AZ for a while and rode daily. They got snow and put down cinders on the road for traction and the cinders lingered long but the roads would dry out a lot faster than they do in Portland. Dry road-sanding remnants just don't stick to your bike bits quite the same as wet road-sanding remnants to.

Even on days it doesn't rain you can get a road grime suntan. "Oh, that fog looks heavy, bet the roads are wet again."

I think Portland would beat out Milwaukee cuz Milwaukee has more really cold days. You can't get a road grime suntan when everything freezes. You'll stay a lot cleaner if it's 28 degrees out than if it's 38.

Bandera

I was an early adopter of indexed shifting, clipless pedals, cycle computers and high performance clinchers. Disc brakes are not in the same class of useful new technology, in fact they are an answer to a question that I didn't ask: Pass.

-Bandera

mconlonx

I bought a stock Trek Earl and swapped out the fork for a Bontrager RL CX fork, cheap 700cc disk wheel, and take-off hydraulic Hayes disk setup. Fixed out back, disk brake up front. Front disk was severe overkill compared to the stock calipers, which aren't the best in the world.

Stock:





Modded:

mconlonx

You all are missing the point regarding disk brakes: if not for disk brakes, how ever would bicycle companies be able to market a whole new line of road bikes...?

Hypno Toad

I have 2 bikes with disc and 3 with rim brakes. I like each bike the way it is set up, no issues with disc or rim brakes, just right brakes for the right applications.

My commuters (summer & winter) have the discs, this keeps my braking surface out of the wet, snow, ice, and general crap near the road surface. If you winter commute in snow, you find that rim brakes can get caked up with slush and make it hard to actuate the brake. My summer commuter does double duty with gravel grinders and other non-commuting rides. The gravel grinder back in June with pouring rain and muddy trail sections, the discs really paid off, I got back on the road and pedaled on while others were using sticks to get the mud off the rim brakes.

On the other hand, my Felt road bike, rim brakes are just fine, with 25mm tires, your tire patch is so small, disc brakes aren't going to do me much good.

AnkleWork

That's it! That's the answer.
You win one ship's peanut.

jyl

Thanks. I may try this myself, on the road bike that I tend to use in foul weather.

Six jours

Ding ding ding!

Raiden

Didn't you just prove that's not the case, by modifying your caliper brake bike to a disc and tell us it was an improvement?

Since the first time I tried hydraulic discs, I've liked them. I have discs (either hydraulic or cable) on all of my bikes that can physically accept them. I'm looking forward for the day when I can afford a di2/hydraulic disc carbon road bike. I say that as a mechanic that likes working on manual/mechanical devices.

If a new popular thing exists, manufacturers would be idiots to ignore it. Take 29er mountain bikes, for example. People are not buying 26's anymore- not because they don't exist, as they still do for now- but because the dedicated riders already own a 26 (no point in buying another) and new riders are making their own decision to catch the 29 bandwagon. A brand not supplying a 29er is going to get left behind. The same may happen to disc-equipped road bikes when price and availability hit a certain point.

Six jours

I believe the word he used was "overkill". As in "An excess of what is required or suitable, as because of zeal or misjudgment."

That's my feeling about road disks, anyway. They're too powerful for most road conditions, and harder to modulate. They have their place - I, like most folks, am a big fan of hydraulic disks off-road - but as other posters have mentioned, on the road they are mostly an answer to a question that no one asked.

Of course, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't use them on the road if they answer your question. But as numerous posters here have demonstrated, caliper brakes are just right for a lot of cyclists.

cruiserhead

Why do you like hydraulic disc offroad? More modulation, control.
That doesn't change on road.
There are physics involved make a lot of sense why discs perform better.

The attractiveness of road disc is that it's far easier to modulate.
There is far more range of modulation, especially in hydro application.

The brake feel is more precise, and the range of control is much better than calipers.

For wet weather, they are far and away better than rim brakes.

I thought road disc was stupid and unnecessary but it is a great improvement for all the reasons above as well as for carbon wheels, especially tubulars, is a great advantage.

It's moot whether you think they are pointless.
Road disc is not marketed for you. Anyone that doesn't like it has far and away many choices for calipers.

But, the superiority of disc brakes, as well as the marketing boom, makes it a winner for everyone.

Six jours

I think a lot of people use the word "modulation" without really understanding what it means, at least with regard to bicycle brakes.

Hydraulic disk brakes are much more powerful than caliper brakes. That means that it requires much less hand force to lock up a hydraulic disk than does a caliper brake. If, for example, a caliper brake requires 20 pounds of hand force to initiate lock-up, a hydraulic brake might require 15 pounds of hand force, or even less. So a one pound difference in hand force has a greater effect on braking power with a hydraulic disk than it does with a caliper. In point of fact, older, less powerful calipers have better modulation than do today's dual pivot models. The problem is/was the great hand force required for maximum power, and that performance in the wet was quite poor. But strictly in terms of modulation, I would take an old Nuovo Record brake over a modern Dura-Ace brake - let alone a hydraulic dis.

Short version: if I want a very slight change in braking force, it is easier to accomplish with a less powerful brake. There are certainly other issues than modulation when choosing a bicycle brake for a particular application, but the across-the-board claim that "hydraulic disks offer better modulation" is simply false.

Six jours

Beyond that, you pretty much have to be blind to reality to believe that "Disks are a winner for everyone". I mean, have you read any of this thread?

cruiserhead

I understand what you are saying but that is fundamentally incorrect. The physics don't work like that.
The accurate statement is it requires the rider to get used to hydraulic brakes, as it's different. Once you get used to it (like anything) it's far better braking.

The modulation afforded is far greater.

Rim brakes require about 200lbs of force to stop a wheel.
Disc brakes require about 1000lbs of force to stop a wheel.

The range of pressure applied to to the braking surface is from 0 to 1000 lbs of pressure. That is a tremendous amount more modulation than rim brakes.
A rim brake is far more "on/off" than hydraulic discs.

This is the crux of road disc brake advantage that all manufacturers speak to. It's not ultimate stopping power, it's the control.
After riding road disc, I can't see how anyone would come to a different conclusion.
Second,
There is no play in the system.
Rim brakes have flex and constantly changing variables that affect performance, modulation.
Flex in the rim, flex in the squish of rubber pads, flex in the caliper from being mounted to the fork by one small bolt.

Disc brakes have non-compressible pads, braking surface and more robust mounting system.
Incidentally the same things that are important in mtb hydro discs and cx.

As I've said before in this thread, because disc brakes are an improvement, does not somehow negate rim brakes.
For many reasons, rim brakes are an attractive proposition.

However, I think resistance to road disc is just going to blow by the wayside. The only resistance I see is on the internet, frankly.

Canker

You are behind the times. All the cool kids are riding 27.5 now . Those are going to pretty well finish off the 26er and put a big dent in the 29er market as well. The manufactures are tired of making the same style bike in 29er and 26er wheels sizes when they can make one 27.5 and get the best of both, or the worst of both.