Going to be making a set of wheels with sapim laser spokes (2.0/1.5/2.0), Stans Alpha 340 rims and novatec hubs. I read on the Sapim website that they only recommend experienced wheelbuilders use their laser spokes as they're prone to twist. I've only built with straight gauge spokes before.

Planning to use lots of grease on nipples, sticky tape squares attached to the top of each spoke so I can clearly see rotation if it occurs, and copper jaw pliers (some regular needle nosed pliers with two strips of microbore copper tube) to grip spokes and compensate if necessary without deforming or hardening the spoke. Anyone see any faults with this plan or suggest better tips?

If you have a sturdy enough trueing stand, you can help things along by pushing the rim sideways to unload the spoke you're working on a little to reduce the tendency to twist.
Also, try to do the final dishing by working on the NDS rather than the DS.

Many thanks, noted!

I don't think the pliers will grip the spokes well enough to stop the twist. The "flags" you plan to use will be all you need to manage the twist. Use the technique of overshooting your desired nipple position then backing off (either when tightening or loosening) to avoid the spoke twist as much as possible. Hold the wheel vertically and compress the rim against the floor (thin carpet or bath mat to protect the rim and floor) using your body weight in six separate positions around the half-circle to unload the spokes and allow them to unwind. You don't have to go all the way around the circle this way, because each position fixes both top and bottom, i.e. both sides of the hub. Do that several times as you bring up spoke tension and one final time. As long as your flags are in their neutral position, it means you are good to go.

If the threads and nipple seats are well lubed your pliers should work OK. I use cut NN pliers all the time that are wrapped in tape, only having difficulty with wheels that were built with Spoke freeze. I hate that crap! YRMV of course.

+1 on tape flags. Turn the nipple until the spoke stops twisting as indicated by the flag, then judge the amount of tightening (1/4 turn, 1/2 turn, etc.) from that point, then turn back until the flag is at the starting point. Trying to prevent the spoke from twisting with copper jaw pliers will problematic.

I wouldn't use that spoke on the rear DS, PERIOD!

For a 1st build, I wouldn't use that spoke at all unless you have a tension meter.
If you don't have a tension meter, I wouldn't use that spoke, PERIOD.

On the rear DS, your tensions are getting close to where you'll stretch the spoke beyond the elastic limit with a relatively minor overtightening misstep.

You might read this thread-
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...on-wheels.html

The plan was either to try it by hand and then take it into the LBS to check tensions, or just buy a tension meter and then sell it on afterward. I do have access to a couple of linear strain gauges and did consider making a DIY spoke strain guage, but this may be difficult to calibrate.

I've read a lot of conflicting opinions on this, but ultimately went for it. The wheels will be 28 spoke front and rear, so no crazy low spoke counts. Hoping I'll get away with it!
Main thing that swayed me was stans ZTR Valor Cyclocross wheels using the same spokes/count and having a rider weight limit well in excess of mine.

+1. I wouldn't use the 2x1.5's I use 15-16 double butted spokes.

To me, light gauge spokes are all about the thread prep to prevent wind up, not special tools. Every time I build with 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes I do not do anything at all special to prevent wind up, I credit this to the choice of lubricant I use on spoke threads. I use Wheelsmith spoke prep, let it dry and then will use either grease or anti seize over the top of the spoke prep and have not once had to fight wind up. When building I do turn the nipple 1/4 or so turn past where I want to be and then back but I do the same no matter what spoke I am using.

If you are a light rider I would not be too worried about those spokes as looking at your rim choice you are wanting a set of light/fast wheels. Just make sure to keep your tensions even and I would not try to bring tensions all the way to the max tension Stan's gives on that rim of 125kgf. I would stick closer to 100kgf, maybe 110 kgf if your wheel has a lot of dish and use a tension gauge, don't guess.

Number 1 .. proper Spoke wrench . not pliers.

I have a crank type screwdriver made to help count turns . to equalize the progressive bringing up all spokes equally , so wheel stays round.

https://www.bicycleresearchtools.com/nd1.gif

The pliers would be to hold the spoke immobile (if necessary) not to turn the nipple.

+1 ; Wheel Building Tip No. 3 - Stop Spoke Wind Up - Wheel Fanatyk

Between anti sieze on the thread and leaning on the rim with the axle against the floor (letting windup relax)

I only actually started holding the spoke when I began encountering bladed spokes ..

Only thing that would concern me there is using steel to grip steel - might end up distorting the spoke imperceptibly and thus work hardening it. Probably not, but maybe. Hence the makeshift copper jaws. I was initially thinking of using a pipe grip to hold the spoke between two slivers of pine or other soft wood but my dad (engineer of many years) said copper is the way to go.

Good article.... a while ago when I was building with some very butted DT Revolution spokes... I could have used #3 with a brake helper tool.

i've used Sapim Laser spokes on my last few wheel builds (Kinlin xrf200, Novatec quality hubs, Sapim Laser (2.0/1.5/2.0). i've never given spoke twist a second thought. a few spokes ping for the first 10 feet or so of riding and then that's it. i don't use any special tools, just a Park spoke wrench.

i weigh about 150, and ride about 9-10000 miles a year. most of my wheels nowadays are 24-28 holes.

The 15/16/15 gauge butted spoke is far weaker and less durable than the 2.0/1.5/2.0 mm butted spoke. This has been said so many times, but many folks haven't heard it yet. I know it is counter-intuitive, but it is absolutely true. You need higher gauge at the spoke ends, not in the thin butted region. Breakage occurs at the ends. Using the 15 ga (1.8 mm ends) significantly weakens the spoke to breakage at the ends compared to 14 ga or 2.0 mm. In the middle, the lower gauge is actually better as it allows the spoke to elastically stretch more under tension than higher gauge. So there is plenty of elastic deformation that can rebound when the wheel is compressed during riding. That helps to prevent fatigue of the spoke that would occur if it were to go slack. The more stretch, the less likely the spoke is to go slack and the less likely it is to fail from fatigue. Unless someone is crazy heavy, the best spokes are always the DT Revolutions or Aerolites or Sapim Lasers or CX-Rays. As Ripley would say, "Believe it or Not."

Huey, the pinging means you should have worried about spoke windup. The spokes are unwinding and the wheel is going out of true. A little attention during the buildup can prevent this. The beauty of the blades spokes is that you can get the slotted tool to easily hold them straight or straighten them out. Too easy to ignore.

Near as I can tell, 120 kgF on a rear DS 2.0/1.5/2.0 spoke is about 75% or so of its claimed tensile strength for the middle section. Certainly that is right for the round version and close for the CX-Ray aero type. That does sound perilously close to breaking. Yet I have never heard of this kind of spoke breaking in the center section during building or during riding. In my hands the alloy nipples are much more likely to round off and fracture during the tensioning and truing processes.

as mentioned, the pinging only lasts for a few revolutions (if any). it's not annoying.

Are you joking? Of course the pinging stops when the spokes have unwound and the wheel is out of true. No one cares about the pinging. It is having to re-true the wheel that is a pain. Is that what you want?

i usually touch them up after the first couple of rides regardless. sometimes they don't need it. it takes about five minutes, if that.

maybe the concern is with those using bladed spokes, in that they don't want to have their blades dis-oriented. besides the expense, seems like another reason to not use them.

The OP is an INEXPERIENCED wheelbuilder. The potential for a first timer to overtension 1.5mm spokes is a real possibility, especially if they don't have a tension meter.

I'm going to avoid the lasers + al nipple combo in the future because the windup gets bad when you go to true them a year later. CN Spoke cxray copies can be bought on ebay for $1.85 each, so I'll use those with the slotted tool.