crank_addict

Thanks to the industry product managers, their job is to succesfully steer the majority to what 'cycling should be'. Should be rather easy for us to know whether or not we buy into those market trends.

This thread here is obviuosly a discussion among the minority retro-heads. We're not the target customer they seek but surely would like us to change our mind and buy a new bike. And like myself, if you go to a contemporary bike shop that pushes the latest and all you want is a part that only brings a miniscule profit its simply not in their business model. Take for example the overhead cost and labor intensive time to push keybord buttons and look up the part, process your order (vendor CC transaction fee, cost of the receipt paper

Though I'm probably a little different as I do appreciate and enjoy looking over the latest high-zoot stuff, but not enough for me to spend wildly. Yet, when I was in my young twenty's, different obligations, that was me. I was their target customer.

So in some respect, can relate to the young guys today when I show up to a weeknight drop or weekend group ride. They have the hottest wheels, this and that.

Funny though as they don't get my thinking...lol. Why ride such an old steel bike? Uncomfortable old leather saddle? Weird funky lever thingamajings. Only total of 5 gears? You leather strap your shoes to the pedals? Look at all those heavy spokes! Whats that weird tire thing strapped to the rear of the saddle?

Bottom line, I don't race nor chase medals but still seek a healthy exercise by sporting cycling. Bonus is I happen to like old stuff, nostalgia, history and preservation. And even on some old bike I can hold speeds long enough to hang with the mid-crowd. Good enough for me.


edit: Should add, you could ask but I would guess 99% of the people in a modern bike shop (both employee and browsing customers) would look at our old bike and consider for the Goodwill or dumpsite. Seriously.

rhm

Well as one certifiable nut to another, okay, guilty as charged. But you miss my point.

If a bike shop employee doesn't want to deal with me on whatever antique I might bring in, he has my sympathy, which is why I take my more complicated problems elsewhere. Likewise if they would rather deal with weekend warrior racer guys training for this or that and ignore commuters like me on their IGH driven and dynamo lit folding bikes, they have some sympathy as well, though not as much.

But judging by the anecdotes I mentioned, and others in this thread, it appears that the industry has a business model that relies on lying to the customer. They don't say "we won't fix your bike because we don't like you," and they won't say "we won't fix your bike because you're an old cheapskate" and they don't make up some other lame excuse. They say they can't, or no one can. It's a selfserving lie that relies on the customer's ignorance, naivety, and trust. And they get away with it.

Sixty Fiver

I run that little shop that can rebuild your uniglide or Suntour freewheels because I have all the parts, keeping things 100% original can be a little challenge when it comes to sourcing parts as you just can't pull them off the shelf and sometimes you have to go squirrel hunting.

I just serviced a really nice Rocky Mountain Equipe... it rolled in with thrashed 8 speed XT derailleurs and LX shifters and rolled out with some nearly new XT 8 speed and XTR STI (canti) that I had kicking around.

I think a lot of big shops would have written off this bike despite it's hand built pedigree.

Before that it was a 1946 Magneet roadster... the customer ordered a new rear wheel and will have this built with a new SA hub (AWC) as it is a daily driver and not a museum piece.

I don't own a bike that isn't more than 5 years old and the Pugsley is the newest and it is 9 years old with some "obsolete" 9 speed kit.

repechage

I had an interesting conversation with an acquaintance regarding their family's bicycles. The salient points were:
Her bike was not worth servicing. (A rigid Gary Fisher) I agreed, but for different reasons, it did not fit, and never would, purchased from a reputable shop 14 years ago.
The estimate to adjust the gears and brakes, new brake blocks on her daughter's bike, as pretty steep, Near $130.
(cantilever "module" blocks, replacing the unit as a whole). I suggested adjusting the saddle before buying a new seat as the saddle had a severe up tilt.
Her daughter is going off to college, I suggested no new bike, her bike appears pretty low profile to thieves was my guess, no reason to buy a target.
For the son, growing, wanting a more adult bike... a challenge. I made a number of suggestions for new.
Three brands, three shops, no shop had one in stock but all wanted to place him on a bike that was not going to work.

The state of the industry is precarious. It shows in the number of shops closing each year being larger than the number opening.
No wonder as to why.

Numbskull

Good God! I feel sick about missing that.

Wileyone 

I recently walked my pre 1970 Holdsworth into a local bike shop (I was looking for bar tape). The "Mechanic" said to me "those old bikes were made of Aluminum and were way too heavy" And in the same breath asked if I needed any work done....
I respectfully declined.

RobbieTunes

And there's an election coming up.....

lotekmod

I'm with you here. I've been working on my own bikes since I was a kid and worked in a shop as a mechanic for a year. I've brought something to a shop to be repaired one time in the past 15 years and that was recently. I bought a Bianchi with a bent fork and I brought the fork to Curtis an Via Cycles to straighten it. It's the only repair I haven't felt comfortable doing in... as long as I can remember. I'm lucky to have a shop like Via that will gladly fix anything, and do it well. I feel bad that I don't support that shop more, and another great shop closer to my house, but I don't need them for repair service and the parts I can get easier and faster online. I never have time to get to a shop during the week during their working hours. I can order from Niagara on Monday and have it by Friday.

I find it kind of strange that so many shops seem to want to sell a new bike and not do service. When I was working for a shop in Philly the owner told me he didn't make much money on new bikes, at least the off-the-rack commuter type bikes that made the vast majority of sales. He made it clear that he made his money from service, parts, and accessories. We never pushed a new bike on someone, though a repair bill can run up to new bike price quickly. We just showed them the $$ on paper and let the customer figure it out. $200 in repairs or $500 new bike, your choice.

That was back in the late 90's though, maybe the business has changed.

Wileyone 

Not sure Schwinn had any good ones.

Road Fan

"Obsolete" means out of production, no longer made, or out of fashion. It has nothing to do with not useful, incapable of providing the benefit it was designed for, and it doesn't even mean it can't be repaired.

If it's not available for the shops to buy, the shop can't get the part to fix the bike without experimenting with lesser-known stuff like perhaps MicroShift. Clearly it takes more good, basic mechanic skill to adapt an unknown part to a bike than to bolt on a new one that is the original part.

But like a lot of you I don't often deal with it. I've used a shop lately to assemble a new bike for my wife, and we'll see how that works out. I'm not crazy about substituting some guys judgement for mine, but I can still take over tuning the bike when some problem rears its ugly head. I've already had to do that, to keep the chain from throwing off of the granny.

crank_addict

Its good bringing this topic to light.
Who knows, but long as this forum survives other potential C&V enthusiast might stumble upon it at the very least, made aware of scrupulous bike dealers and tactics. Shall they still decide to buy new rather than repair, so be it. And lets hope Ding Dong Bike shops Inc. gets our drift and change the attitude.

Somewhat related:
Anyways, I'm sort of changing my approach and how to get the next generation involved, not fall into the marketer's trap that everything is obsolete. Got to start them young as once they get involved with other stuff at the teen age, might not mean much.

The experiment / plan

I recently completed a fun 70's lightweight, played with a theme, sort of tribute bike for one of the granddaughters. Small frame but has all the traits of classic racer. Really enjoyed the project starting with a clean canvas, screw the purist mentality. Not top line but yet attractive enough and respectable rider. I set a budget and stuck with it. BTW: The budget was far less than anything new from a LBS. This including Campy NR / SR, new tubular rubber, Brooks saddle, etc.. Crispy classic.

For me it was quite satisfying. Most everything was salvaged. The Campy NR stuff came from various others and admit would normally be considered garbage. But, I took the extra time and made use of it. Also, the kids won't simply be handed these builds either. I want them to demonstrate respect, learn of the bike, basic maintenance, understand the importance of taking care of things rather than always replacing, even if their peers or society tells otherwise.

So now I'm onto the next, same concept but a different make, model, tribute. Think to be on track as I've noticed that sparkle in the eyes. She inquired and started reading online of a rider history or looking at the paint scheme of the project. Should this one turnout as good, I've got three more to do Lookout for the all girl peloton on classic, cool retro racers ~ hah

Velocivixen

So it appears that the largest Obsolescence is not necessarily the scarcity of parts, but the lack of individual desire to seek beyond ones world view.

Road Fan

Sounds like a lovely bike, but will the kids buy into friction?

Road Fan

Very well said, Velocivixen! Attitudes and imagination are certainly parts of it. The customer is not first.

embankmentlb

A bike shop that says "It can't be fixed" is being pretty honest. They can't!

crank_addict

Thanks and I don't think they have to 'buy' into the friction shift. No different as we learned, accept it for what it is.

Kind of funny, but one of the girls just turned 7. I have her on a 24" wheeled ATB, index shifter. Without explaining gearing, took her to a hilly area and only mentioned of keep pedaling and to find a gear selection that makes it the easiest, but 'not to easy'. This way she won't wind out but also told her if it gets too difficult, go another click lower. Minimal explanation. Cute as she get's it and then away she goes. Its almost like automatic.

Drifting here but I also let the kids play with the tools, parts, whatever they want. They love this stuff. I let them get greasy, they enjoy watching and constantly asking questions. Bottom line is it shows curiosity and interest. Have no clue if it'll last, but its a start.

repechage

I don't think the basic economic equation for a shop has changed. The Internet was I am sure much less of a factor then.
Bikes still are a break even at best overall.
Boutique built bikes, probably not.
In visiting shops locally, the parts inventory is thin, perhaps the diversity of bikes coming in for service or the reality that stocking much costs too dearly.
The knowledge base has evolved, younger mechanics have lived index shifting, friction was before they were born. The evolution of 7, then 8, 9, 10, 11 has been at a steady cadence. Out of date means obsolete, too risky to be creative and make secret matches work.

Maybe not enough grey haired mechanics?

gomango

On the other hand, all of the mechanics at the shop I frequent are young and highly trained.

They are literate with all of the mixes of road and mtb components from SRAM, Shimano and Campy.

I wouldn't worry about them working on any of my bikes, even the c&v examples.

The only grey haired guys I see around the shop are many of the older racers and the shop owner himself.

The shop owner likely turned grey over paying the bills each month and keeping the front door open.

No way I would take on that pressure at my age.

Murray Missile 

In 1984 they were third in line behind the Super Sport and Peloton in Schwinn's "Competition" series and built by Panasonic. The frame and fork were Tange Champion No. 2 chrome moly.

rccardr 

...and later ones were Columbus Tenax and, in my humble butt's opinion, as good a ride as anything out of, well, anywhere at the time.

Ride one of my restored Tempos and you will be a believer.

Lascauxcaveman 

^ Yeah I think @Wileyone missed that I was making a joke in re Ford Tempo (cheap junky car) vs Schwinn Tempo (very decent bike).

iab

That is awfully cynical.

I would agree with crank_addict. 99.99% of the world considers C&V quaint at best, but in reality, it is crap for the recyclers.

Now why in hell would any business cater to the 0.01%? I would understand if it were the world's richest 0.01% but in reality C&Vers are the cheapest basterds in the world. A business must make money. Turning away the 0.01% is absolutely a no brainer.

And go ahead and beat the Grant Peterson drum all you wish. It will only scare people away. You can call the 99.99% "brainwashed" if you will. Then again, they can say the exact same thing about you.

Let the pissing match commence.

iab

I wonder if the people reading this thread understand the irony.

rhm

No, you still miss my point.

The people I'm talking about are not interested in C&V bikes. They are cyclists who would rather ride than repair bikes, and are perfectly willing to pay someone to do their repairs for them, and the bike shops turn them away with lies. This thread started with an anecdote about an older gentleman who brought a 1970-ish Condor track bike into the shop and asked to have the tubular tires replace. No, the mechanic said, we don't work on tubular tires. Fine, said the guy, can you replace the wheels with clincher? No, the mechanic said, modern wheels are spaced different and won't fit your frame. Really? I just googled "fixie wheelset" and found plenty of options starting at a hundred bucks. Add tires and tubes and labor, the bike shop could have made a couple hundred bucks in less than an hour. This is their bread and butter. So why did they turn the guy away?

Okay, you may doubt the anecdote. That's fine. Or you may say well, the mechanic was just incompetent; but that is not fine. Shops should not be hiring mechanics that incompetent. But I don't see how you can deny the possibility that the mechanic was intentionally lying to the customer.

You can talk about the 0.01% C&V nuts all you want, but I'm not talking about them. I know perfectly well they are out there, certifiable crazies like crank addict and myself and many other posters on this forum, and I can't blame any bike shop for not catering to them.

CliffordK

I ran into the problem... went into a bike shop to get brake pads for a Mongoose MTB.

I suppose I could have replaced the callipers... but I just wanted pads. The mount REQUIRED longitudinal grooves on the studs.

The LBS wanted to sell me the wrong pads, and said the right ones were unavailable. They were a bit of a pain to find, but were available on the internet.

I've also been turned away hunting for parts for Dept Store bikes.

One issue is that the more they turn away customers, the more they loose customers.

I drive older cars... at least I did until I parked my car last fall.

I've had very good luck with getting just about any part for mainstream autos 20+ years old. My biggest problem has been either grey market or orphaned autos. So, Chrysler dropped most of the service for the Renaults after merging with AMC. And, nobody seems to like my Fiats.

The biggest problem has been things like license plate lights which are generally model specific items with sealed units. And, yes, I've been stopped for a faulty license plate light with no replacements available.

At some point.. 50 years??? One starts heading to antique vehicle support.

Perhaps that is part of the problem.

It is not only age, but there are 1000 bike manufactures, and a bike shop is expected to supply parts for EVERYTHING. Unlike going to your Chevy dealer who only needs to concentrate on Chevys, not Fords, Subarus, Fiats, Renaults, Studebakers and etc. Of course, the independent parts dealers deal with all brands.

Go into a parts store. If they don't have the car part, they'll look for it. And usually it is quick. Now a LOT is computerized. Then they have the BOOKS. And they can usually get the parts in a few days.

Perhaps what the bike industry needs is a good centralized parts warehouse that specializes in stocking EVERYTHING.

It shouldn't take a half a day to find a French or Swiss BB... I can find them on E-Bay in a few seconds. But there is no reason they shouldn't be universally available. Hmmm... Swiss + Cotters or Cotterless? Swiss + Campy Cotterless?

Another problem that I repeatedly run into with the auto world is that if the part I'm looking for is unavailable... then what about something that is close. But there is rarely the proper indexing of parts to just find something that will fit (other than tires & V-Belts).

========

So, if the Local Bike Stores don't want to loose customers... they co need to actually make an effort to stock, sell, or acquire the parts the customers need. Tell a customer to buy brake pads on the internet... and they may actually find some big fully stocked online dealers.