Thanks for that information, that's a really sad way for Shogun to be resurrected, very sad. Maybe Centurion is better off being forgotten.

Not half as sad, as having to assemble them at the bike shop, and not being able to tell the customers not to buy them. My boss would order at least 40 of this quality of bike every year, for Christmas time.,,,,BD


Out of the box, some had terminal problems. Cogs separating from the freewheel bodies within a day or two of purchase, and so on.. Making them ridable was harder than completely rebuilding a 40 year old road bike, and the end result wasn't near as satisfying.

I believe that mine is 25.8mm, possible 25.6.

Many centurions were slaves, and the Romans destroyed their opposition, but Rome had more interest in taxes and influence than slaughter. After the fall of the empire, things were decidedly less civil in many areas no longer under the thumb, and Monty Python has a skit about that, too. A centurion was also a 100-man unit that had little equal in its era.

My plan to bring back Centurion is already working.

Bring back Fiorelli bikes...!

thanks for replying!

ok, cool. i'll try to find a 25.8 and sand it if it's too big.

HEH! I'm a history geek, and an imperialist. I always associate the centurions with progress, stability, order and prosperity!

Being fairly agnostic and Machiavellian might shape my biases. I also just dig Italy. Then again I rooted for the empire and the sheriff of Nottingham.

centurion is such a good name it has already been taken really. but it would be cool if Diamondback made a "centurion" model that harkened back to the 80s heyday of the brand.

Centurion bikes, like Nishiki, were just decals plastered on by Western States Imports (who later introduced the decal DiamondBack), they were never a real brand manufacture just as Schwinn and Cannondale is today...just decals. But the designer a famous frame designer, Yamakoshi, designed the frames, this is the same thing that Grant Petersen did when he was with Bridgestone and still does today with his offerings. Back in the day there were some exceptional Centurion bikes that go for a lot of money today like the Ironman Master, Ironman, Cinelli Equipe, Pro Tour, Turbo, Comp TA, and the Elite RS, either of those bikes gave the Italians a run for their much more money bikes. For someone to say they were all low end bikes proves they know nothing of the bike. This would be akin to saying that Grant Petersen's bikes all suck.

Also Miyata of old is not the same as Koga Miyata today, Miyata of old put out a few very high caliper bikes and their triple butted splined tubing was the best in the world! They weren't just a touring bike company like they are today.

If you like the Centurion then get it, I have a mix of vintage and newer bikes and like them all, get what you like. Personally the older vintage bike components are more durable than the newer stuff but parts sometimes can be a hassle to find with the vintage stuff.

?

Koga Miyata has a full line of bikes...from carbon Uber machines to city bikes. They focus on trekking with the steel offerings, but not many companies offer full lines in steel. As far as miyata's triple butted stuff, I like their bikes a lot...but best in the world maybe a stretch. Lots of nice tubing out there, including miyata. It does run a touch heavy, and doesn't have the most lively ride in my experience.

I'm partial to lotus and Miyata as far as the japanese stuff.

Italy is a great place to visit. It was comical though to see the artifacts from the Imperial Era in the Vatican collection. I now have the unshakable image of them marching along singing "follow the yellow brick road". My attention would be riveted by a "Carthaginian" bicycle, just as it has been by bicycles built by those in Nottingham (with a much more honorable name than that old, lackey, 1%er, Sherriff)

The Vatican is just incredible...we spent 6 hours there and it felt rushed. We maybe saw 50% of what they have. Maybe. I think it would take weeks to fully explore and appreciate everything.

Can the still use the name Ironman? Or is that owned by WTC (World Triathlon Corp)?

I'd be interested to hear what your thinking is here.

I have absolutely nothing against the bike makers. I want to be certain that is clear. I am also not boycotting them or anything because of their name. My path has not intersected with one, but neither have I really sought one out.

Quite simply, my perception of the Roman Empire is mixed. Yes, they achieved a lot, and did much to advance technology and also, in some ways, civilization in general. On the other face though, I object to Imperialism - even when the result tends to uplift the standard of living amongst the subjected people. The mechanisms of slavery, conscription and forced tribute (to name a few), run counter to the golden rule - hence my generalization of, "the bad guys".

I truly didn't intend to make more than the initial, admittedly cheeky comment. My apologies for having side-tracked the discussion to the extent that I have. Would prefer to avoid further discourses about ancient political mores in this particular thread. From all that I hear, they did make some very good bicycles, and I can only speculate as to why the name has not made a comeback like several others have.

So Centurion and Diamondback bikes were just decals plastered on by WSI, yet they were designed and spec'd(at least thru the mid-80s) by one of the founders of Centurion? Well that just doesn't make much sense. Sure, they contracted out the literal build process, but they certainly did more than just plaster on decals, as you initially suggest.


As for the Miyata comments- the Miyata of old still exists. And they never were the same as Koga Miyata- not back in the golden age and not now. Koga-Miyata was a partnership and it isn't even going on today- it dissolved a handful of years ago, at least from what Ive read.
...but I assume you know all this already.

Koga Miyata is still around. The rest I would tend to agree.

As I understand it WSI was similar to Lotus. They were US companies that created brands, went to Japan, and worked with Japanese manufacturers to develop specs for bicycles. WSI and Lotus were both involved in designing these Japanese made bikes for the US market.

All of this follows the Japanese manufacturing pattern - US/Euro engineers/designers (whether as consultants, employees or as third party partners) helping/guiding Japanese manufacturers in developing and supplying products for foreign markets. At some point in the process, the Japanese become innovative suppliers and designers on their own...but the initial set ups were typically guided by foreign direction.

Dave Scott had a lot of input on the Ironman, as did Alan Goldsmith and WSI's founders, who were bike experts AND businessmen. It took 2 years to design and negotiate the Equipe with Cinelli. They knew what they wanted. KAS is right. Tsunoda didn't cookie-cut frames. At the time, the best place to get your frame made was Japan, if you wanted to sell and not lose money.

As for the whole Roman thing, Alvin Toffler is a good read. Someone else if not them, just part of the First Wave. Interesting side issue.

Wasn't a Centurion just a Praetorian wannabe...?

Spartan JV, but strength in numbers and brutally efficient.

Yeah I noticed now that Koga is offering other types of bikes besides Touring.

As far a liveliness goes with Miyata, I find that in error, I have two with that triple butted tubing as well as other frames from other manufactures in addition to having once owned others, and the Miyata are the most lively I've ever ridden in the vintage steel department; but in the quest of having a stiff frame with very little flex compared to other frames they did make the frame a tad heavier (by about 1/2 pound from the lighter offerings) than a few of the lighter offerings in the day, but those lighter offerings flexed more. Actually my Team at 21.1 pounds is tied for second lightest vintage steel bike I have, the lightest one I have is the Fuji Club which scaled at 20.8 the other 21.1 is the Trek 660 which weighed less when I had it in racing form back in the 80's which was probably closer to the Fuji.

I don't think there was ever a time when Koga Miyata didn't offer a full line of bikes. I think you're getting confused because their only steel or custom stuff is touring/trekking. I think it was pretty awesome that they even offered an option like that!

You know how it is - any conversation about stiffness/liveliness is going to be largely subjective (as well as subject to contact point and fit differences). Understand - I am NOT trashing Miyata; far from it!! I bought my first Miyata in 1994 and loved the thing. I think I've almost always owned a Miayata ever since (now a Koga Miyata).

I don't think Centurion did either - they both have some true stand outs. The centurion with stock brazed on U brakes was a coooooool velo. I'd kill for a 1985 Lotus Odyssey in blue/gold.

Rather than Centurion, better yet: Hetairoi (for Alexander the Great's Macedonian cavalry). A great bike is a great companion!

no need to beat around the bush. we usually just say, 'fascist.'

Nope - a monarchist and British loyalist

I just don't romanticize populist religious revolts. Rebel scum. (I can't believe I'm being called a fascist based on a Star Wars joke, but there you go).