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Help Identify Vintage Frame

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Help Identify Vintage Frame

Old 10-12-15, 03:26 PM
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Automatix
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Help Identify Vintage Frame

Hi Guys

I recently purchased a 62cm vintage style bike off Ebay (got it for a steal). Now im trying to identify the frame as it has no stamped branding or serial numbers. It simply has a singel "F" stamped into the bottom bracket (french?)

It was imported by omafiets in sydney Shimano 600EX Road Bike (62cm) ? Omafiets Dutch Bicycles from Rotterdam, Netherlands.

Has the following;

- "600 EX 12 Speed" in very faint stencil on the top tube.
- teardrop shapes cutaway at the top tube and stem joints.
- distinctive cable guides above the BB which are branded shimano.
- steel frame with a "2393" decal on the stem
- Shimano 600 EX group set minus the rear DR (fitted with a 500?
- Shimano stickers all over the place!

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Old 10-12-15, 03:44 PM
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is pillar a teihei or a nitor?

are brakes modolo?
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Old 10-12-15, 04:11 PM
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Lugwork suggests low-middling (Japanese?) factory made frame. Tubing sticker suggests a hi ten steel, although I've never seen that particular number (2010 is a fairly common one). My guess is late 1970s.

I think I've seen a picture of a similar bike here in these forums somewhere, so I bet somebody has better info than I.
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Old 10-12-15, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Lascauxcaveman View Post
Lugwork suggests low-middling (Japanese?) factory made frame. Tubing sticker suggests a hi ten steel, although I've never seen that particular number (2010 is a fairly common one). My guess is late 1970s.

I think I've seen a picture of a similar bike here in these forums somewhere, so I bet somebody has better info than I.
good observations!

have a raleigh of america frame hanging in my racks which i believe has the same lugs. it dates from right at the beginning of the huffman time ~1980.
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Old 10-12-15, 05:24 PM
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Thanks guys I really appreciate the leads you are generating (Apologies for the orientation of images).

It certainly doesn't seem as refined as a masi frame, so I'm leaning towards a Japanese make. The seat post collar looks pressed and the top of the fork design feels a bit sharp to touch.

If anyone would like close up shots of any particular area please let me know.

Cheers Steve.
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Old 10-12-15, 05:25 PM
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Thanks Juvela I'd love to see it if possible
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Old 10-12-15, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Automatix View Post
Thanks Juvela I'd love to see it if possible
it is made in japan with reynolds 501 tubing. quite an odd combination! sorry, no digital camera here; on me list of things to purchase...

additional readers are sure to be along shortly with more and better information about your cycle.
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Old 10-12-15, 05:56 PM
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A close up of the rear dropouts might help.
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Old 10-12-15, 06:52 PM
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What, exactly, does the tubing decal say?

Multiple ?

Bent?le?

239?

Precision Steel Tu?
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Old 10-12-15, 07:16 PM
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Hi Scooper. It literally says

Multiple Cold Drawned
BENTELER
2393
Precision Steel Tube

I assume it says "cold" as it's only missing a letter that's been scratched away. And cold rolled steel means something to me.

No idea what "Drawned" means but that's exactly what's written.

Any ideas?

Homebrew01 I will take some shots of the drop outs tonight for you, but they have no branding whatsoever. And are angled with tension screws (typical derailer attachment also)

Thanks guys.
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Old 10-12-15, 08:14 PM
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I have taken a bunch of new photos for you all. I hope they help.

Lots of "SR" parts on the bike, but not sure if they are original. skuba_dude's Recent Uploads | Photobucket
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Old 10-12-15, 08:27 PM
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Here, check this out, flip through this album, it may lend some clues. Note the resemblance: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...3546996&type=3
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Old 10-12-15, 08:43 PM
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Not sure if this helps, but here's a similar looking bike badged as "Francesco" Strada.





The only other hits I'm getting for Benteler 2393 are the above mentioned Helyett and a Dutch Empella (not sure what model; it looks like it was an ad that expired a while back).

It appears Benteler is a an Austrian steel tubing manufacturer (among other things).
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Old 10-12-15, 09:16 PM
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DIN 2393 is a (Deutsches Institut für Normung, or German Institute for Standardization) standard for welded (seamed) cold-drawn steel tubing, but the 2393 standrd has been replaced by DIN EN 10305-2 (same thing, just a different number).

Here is a table showing the chemistry and strength (yield strength and tensile strength) of DIN EN 10305-2.



In comparison to SAE/AISI standards, EN 10305-2 has slightly higher yield and tensile strength than 1020 carbon steel.

SAE 1020 has a cold-drawn yield strength of 205 MPa and a cold-drawn tensile strength of 420 MPa.
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Old 10-12-15, 10:25 PM
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You guys are amazing!! I am gob-smacked at the assistance and the attention to detail offered. I hope to return the favour in due course, much appreciated.
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Old 10-12-15, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by francophile View Post
Here, check this out, flip through this album, it may lend some clues. Note the resemblance: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...3546996&type=3
I think this is really close, the only difference is the shifters.
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Old 10-12-15, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
A close up of the rear dropouts might help.
Should be plenty of shots of the drop outs here skuba_dude's Recent Uploads | Photobucket
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Old 10-12-15, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MauriceMoss View Post
Not sure if this helps, but here's a similar looking bike badged as "Francesco" Strada.





The only other hits I'm getting for Benteler 2393 are the above mentioned Helyett and a Dutch Empella (not sure what model; it looks like it was an ad that expired a while back).

It appears Benteler is a an Austrian steel tubing manufacturer (among other things).
Thanks for this Moris Moss ("message for me"!) haha

This is also really close, for some reason mine has the shifter positions fixed. I like the paint on this one.
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Old 10-13-15, 06:42 AM
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I think ive gotten pretty close chasing the "Empella" route.

I've found this Wielersport.slogblog.nl | Uit de stalling van Peter R. de Fiets …

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Old 10-13-15, 12:21 PM
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I don't think it's a Huissoon. It's not the level of quality I would expect from that brand.

I can tell you, however, that a former owner lived in Rosmalen, Holland. His (or her) address is etched on the top tube: 5241KP 22.
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Old 10-13-15, 12:27 PM
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Another thing: the sticker says 'bike cash & carry'. Not a sign it's very high end. I would guess Belgian or French origin.
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Old 10-13-15, 12:32 PM
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Interesting bike, BTW. I've seen more with such an abundance of Shimano stickers. Have one myself, a Peugeot. Not sure what was going on with that.

BTW, sorry about my haphazard posting. I'm trying to cook a duck at the same time.
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Last edited by non-fixie; 10-13-15 at 03:02 PM. Reason: spelling errors. No good trying to cook and post at the same time.
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Old 10-13-15, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
Interesting bike, BTw. I've seen more with such an abundance of Shimano stickers. Have one myself, a Peugeot. Not sure what was going on with that.

BTW, sorry about my haphazard posting. I'm trying to cook a duck at the same time.
Thanks for the information non-fixie.

I agree it doesnt feel very high end. I have found a few images of similar frames, but what seems to be slightly differing fork designs.

So far the most likely are the "Helyett" From France and the "Francesco Strada" from Holland.
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Old 10-13-15, 02:58 PM
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I was poking around and I saw several similar frames, but that "Francesco Strada" frame is about as close as one can get to the same bike. The Helyett is close (I was going by fork crown) but the dropout and lugs are different. I just ran across that page recently after seeing some pretty cool looking Helyett bikes on two of the Cragislist-like sites I watch overseas in towns where friends live which inspired me to dig for more info. I hadn't heard of the brand before, apparently Gitane bought them at some point in the 70s? This could explain any French influences on a bike if it were a Helyett, but you'd be hard pressed to find one that matches, I can't find a central location with pictures in French or English - I searched in both!

One thing is for sure: I agree with a couple above that the stylistic cues put the bike 70s-80s. I'm thinking late 70s, maybe early 80s.

One of these days I wouldn't mind finding a Helyett, there's something nice about them. I'd also love to have an Edi Strobl in the stable, but that's another one impossible to find over here.
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Old 10-13-15, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MauriceMoss View Post
Not sure if this helps, but here's a similar looking bike badged as "Francesco" Strada.

The only other hits I'm getting for Benteler 2393 are the above mentioned Helyett and a Dutch Empella (not sure what model; it looks like it was an ad that expired a while back).

It appears Benteler is a an Austrian steel tubing manufacturer (among other things).
From what I can tell they have dressed this up to look like a MOSER frame with the Franceso Moser decals, and some pretty fresh looking stickers.
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