markk900

In continuing my build of the 50s Paff (see these threads: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...treasures.html, https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...-pictures.html, https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...-50s-paff.html, and https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...-50s-paff.html ), after I reassembled the headset and remounted the fork, I determined that the fork had been slightly bent at the steerer. It was slightly but obviously pushed back towards the frame, as from a front end collision in its past life. So I disassembled, and proceeded to straighten the steerer. Now for those of you that like murder mysteries, I can already hear you saying "I know where this is going!", but nope, you'd be wrong!

I actually got the fork straightened out without much drama, though in spite of my best efforts did damage the new paint a bit (always check these things *before* painting!). No worries, I can fix that.....

But lo and behold, this little devil popped its head up: I don't know how I can fix this and hence the request for options!





Looks like there was some longstanding rust under what was left of the chrome, and this hole showed up as I was cleaning up after the fork bending exercise.....

So far I expect my options are:
1. Replace the fork (I have a spare tange fork in good shape that appears will fit, but it does NOT have the beautiful crown this one does. It'll likely work but it won't be a 62 year old italian fork!).
2. Get a frame builder to replace the fork blades (if only I knew a frame builder).
3. The backyard optimist in me says perhaps get the hole brazed up by a competent welder (I know a few of those!)....however the pessimist in me see this like mice or cockroaches - if you have one you have a bunch.....

Any advice from the wiser among you? Are there other options? For #2 , anyone know a frame builder in Southern Ontario that could tackle something like this for less than a powerball win's worth of dollars?

Salamandrine 

Sorry dude but that fork is toast. It's a cool bike, but not worth risking your neck. The blades probably got water in them at some point and rusted out.

It's probably not going to be worth it economically to replace the blades, but it's potentially possible if the steerer and fork crown are OK. Sorry I don't know anyone.

markk900

Thanks @Salamandrine....I think I realize in my heart of hearts you are right. I did find one local framebuilder but I am not sure he'll do repairs...he's pretty busy with new builds. But I will email them tomorrow and ask to be sure.

Other problem with a replacement fork is that the headset (labelled Paff as well) might also have to go. We'll see.....I'm one of those obsessive-compulsives that will throw good money after bad to just not be beaten by stuff like this.....(not O-C enough to rechrome everything, but that's a different story!).

3speedslow

I am heartbroken for you! So close as you did your best to return this bike to the road.

I would not trust that fork. I bet further stress testing will reveal other soft spots.

Silver lining is that you did not have it crumble out on the road sending you to the asphalt at speed.

IMO, find a decent replacement and continue. Keep the old fork for matching, conversation.

Move forward mark.

Road Fan

True North Cycles in Guelph? I don't know about a powerball, but a good frame shop!

Matt Assenmacher's near Flint, MI.

Franklin Frames near Columbus, OH.

I think I saw a frame shop on the non-Ottawa side of Ottawa.

Quiring Cycles in ..... someplace in south centra Michigan.

There's also Ralph Ellis, Ypsilanti Cycles, in Ypsilanti, MI. He built me a whole fork for way less than a powerball but is a little hard to reach these days. I think you can find him on Facebook.

But do a really good inspection on the rest of the frame. If it's bad here it could be bad elsewhere. I know from a recent conversation with Ellis that it doesn't take much for frame repair work to become as $$ as frame building work.

gugie 

Here in Portland, it seems that there's a frame builder in every neighborhood, and I don't know a single one of them who would try to patch that. That hole is in probably the very worst place it could be.

I don't even think the fork is worth repairing. It wouldn't be original after replacing the fork blades. You could probably find a donor fork for a lot less money.

Speaking of which, how long is the steerer? How much fork rake do you have? Maybe someone here has a fork they could sell you. Try a local co-op. I'd bet the C&V borg could come up with a good replacement.

devinfan

Before writing it off completely I'd take it to Malcolm at Biseagal on Carlaw avenue in Toronto. He's pretty inventive and might be able to help you. I'm sure he'd try anyway and he's very reasonable.

verktyg 

Sorry dude...

Break out the marmalade, Marmite, Bovral or Nutella...




A few years ago a friend bought a super light lugless frame at bike swap. It looked fine until he started stripping the paint. The fork blades and seat stays were full of pin point rust holes.

He had a local frame builder do some patch work but it's going to be a wall hanger, never to be ridden again.

verktyg

Chas.

markk900

OK OK ...I get it.... I'm a Nutella guy and its breakfast time. (No, literally I am eating breakfast as I write this).

I have an email into True North (as they are the local builder to me), but given this was never intended to be a museum restoration I am going to pursue the replacement fork path. I already have one so just need to find a headset that fits and I should be OK.

I had the rest of the frame pretty much stripped to bare metal (including the stays) and found no rust (in fact, the frame looked amazing all shiny and "new"). There's a bit of pitting through the chrome at the dropouts but not an issue. And a flashlight down the seat tube reveals nothing unusual.

Clearly the bike was in a collision at some point in the past - the rust may have been concentrated on the fork if there was a previous repair.
@devinfan - I used to live on Carlaw - might go there just for old times' sake.

I am now considering using some other newer components (since originality is now shot). For the pictures in a previous thread I had a set of VO bars and and SR stem mounted and they looked sweet. The original bars are cool but look horrid. I will be replacing the rims (rust) so those will be modern as well, and the original saddle is MIA so that is being replaced. I do want to get out on that frame - its calling to be ridden again so I might follow that direction for now and take time (and money) to get the rest of the bike back in order - then rebuild with the original stuff as much as possible.

daf1009

This sounds like a reasonable plan...that fork would scare me to death to ride...even if a builder agreed to repair it!

The Golden Boy 

Oh come on! Where's your sense of adventure?

If I wanted to read about pansies I'd be in a gardening forum!!!

It'll buff out.

Ride it, it builds character.

I once rode a rusty Viscount fork with an early 80s Trek 600 fork crown spread open for a Helicomatic hub on the front.






OK. I'm kidding. Do not ride that fork.

Best of luck at finding something really cool to put on there!

Slash5

I'd check at Backpeddling in Guelph and see if they have a fork that would look reasonable.

Henry III

I say pick up a replacement but keep looking or post in the framebuilder forum and someone might chime in and take on job of replacing the blades for you. Forks are kind of a hairy thing. I think that's why many builders use aftermarket forks in place of making their own and slap an Enve or something else in there. I don't have a fork jig nor anything to bend my own blades and just picked up Surly fork instead for the frame I just built. We built our own forks in class and it's not very difficult but surprisingly you can build a frame without a jig easier then a fork.

CliffordK

That is an odd hole. It doesn't look like it is a rust pit. It looks like it has been gouged with something. Screw?

Is it just on one fork blade, or on both?

What are your ultimate plans for the bike? A few Sunday rides? Hardcore commuting? Resale?

The photos look like it is solid metal around the hole. If it was me, I'd probably braze or tig it, and many of the old metals are supposed to do better with braze temperatures than tig temperatures, so it would probably get a drop of brass or silver.

SJX426 

I am close to agreeing with @CliffordK. That looks like something was mounted on the leg and a screw was used to hold it down, resulting in a puncture. I am thinking of a light.

What does concern me is the tear on the left side. That tear will propogate over time and needs to be addressed. I am not a frame builder, so can't make a judgment call. The rust on the rest of the fork looks mostly like surface rust. Can you hear rust sliding up and down the fork legs when you rotate the fork end to end?

bertinjim 

markk900-

You might want to try Jody Lee of Jester Bicycles out of Welland, Ontario. He did all the metal and paint on my restored Bertin C 37 and his pricing is reasonable. You can reach him at:

jody.jesterbikes@gmail.com

markk900

Thanks all for the additional comments and suggestions. The hole only showed up after some work on the fork (if you look at some of the other photos you'll not see evidence of a hole) and appears to have been hidden by a flake of chrome. The light (which cleaned up nicely) was mounted up higher on the fork and there is a little dimple there from the mounting screw. It's definitely rust since once I saw it I tried cleaning it up a bit a more dusty rust came out.

@Slash5 - the tange fork I have is from Backpeddling - I live about 3 blocks away! Will look for a cooler replacement but the one I have is already the right size and the bend of the fork legs is close to the original. @bertinjim: thanks for the reference!

Ultimate plan is a Sunday rider - mostly renovating it as an homage to my friends father who was the original owner. It won't get huge use once it's done....but still needs to be safe as it will not be a wall hanger.

dddd

I suppose one could actually fill the lower leg with some kind of hardening liquid, either molten metal or resin.

Even a structural epoxy would give a lot of support against buckling, but might do little to prevent the growth of what appears to be a growing crack.

If the hole had been in a chainstay, or if the fork crown had an open top, one could even force a bundle of thin metal rods into a pool of liquid resin down inside the fork leg for greatly enhanced rigidity, strength and toughness.

I thought this out when I buckled a chainstay of my Trek Hybrid on a rock, but I just straightened the chainstay, wrapped it with tape and it's been fine.

CliffordK

Having rust fall out of the hole doesn't mean that the rust caused the hole. But, you should be the best judge of the actual condition of the metal.

Many "modern" tubes will have a vent hole somewhere, usually within 1/2" from the end, but it could be literally anywhere with your bike. However, if it was a construction hole, one would expect symmetry.

I like the looks of the old fork, but if you already have a replacement, perhaps that is for the best. Keep it in case you should choose to get it repaired, or even get the fork legs replaced.

Campagnerdo 

Anyone else curious to see the crown? Also a shot of the whole fork to see the rake. What is the steerer length? I'm sure there are some of us that must have orphan forks in our parts bin.

markk900

@Campagnerdo: Here's some photos of the fork and crown....





Like I said, I do have a fork in hand with the correct length of steerer and similar rake. Appreciate the implied offer of a replacement.

markk900

So got an email back from Hugh at True North Cycles - he was very helpful and estimated the work required (with the caveat that sometimes just working on them can be a pain). However, the cost (though quite reasonable for the labour involved and compared to bikes of today) is out of line with the value of the bike and the money I can currently spend on restoration. About the same as a new custom lugged fork.

I also more carefully checked the spare fork I already have and though it is not as interesting as the original, it fits perfectly and the geometry appears the same (ie. Fork ends land in the same spot as the originals, though the curve to get there is longer and more gradual). So I am off to find a compatible headset just to get the bike on the road. The original fork will be kept until I decide whether a true restoration should be done (ie all new chrome, "real" paint, and real money). At least I know someone that can fix it!

Velognome 

Several years ago, I posted a forkblade that was rusted, bubbled chrome, etc and was warned by responders "not to use it". I sent the fork off to have the blades replaced and the builder replied, "why? they are sound, just chrome and paint them."
Now, he had the expertise to determine soundness......You will have dome come to the same conclusion whether you do via a professional or personal determination.

to me, the hole looks to be on the outside of the fork leg correct? It also looks like it was a screw hole that was holding something that got torn off. I'd flood the inside of the fork with OA or Evaporust then prod the fork with an awl or ice pick to see if the steel is sound. Personally, If I was convinced it was sound, I'd fill the hole and use the fork.


Just an opinion, I have no training, skills etc, just a "what the 'ell" attitude to such things. 'Couse the replacement fork would be just fine as a rider or have the blades replaced if it's a restoration.

markk900

Final update for now....on the original fork front, I'm starting to think @CliffordK, @dddd and @Velognome may be right. I did some intensive cleaning around the hole and actually no other rust anywhere around there - pitted chrome yes, but no rust or flakes. Some powdered rust and small bit came out of the hole as I shook the forks, but I now suspect at some point in the past something was attached there, pulled out and left a puncture. It doesn't make sense that a rust perforation would occur on the TOP of the tube before the bottom if it was moisture inside that caused the problem. I poked around pretty hard and scratched away at anything that looked even remotely suspect and nothing else showed itself. Anyway, I think I will leave it off the bike for now regardless, but I will take it to be assessed/repaired at some point.

The really positive news is that not only is the replacement fork I already happened to have a match for the geometry, it turns out the threading is the same so I get to keep the original headset. It all went together "like butter" tonight. And it doesn't look too bad. The crown on this new fork may even be chrome under the paint based on some chips - I will be able to tell once I prep it for painting. So the bike will be rideable no matter what!

Next step will be rebuilding wheels - that will be some time so I will be posting under a Paff update thread when I have more work completed.

gaucho777 

I think this is a fine approach. Do what you can to get it on the road, but keep the original fork and hopefully/eventually you can get the fork repaired. As per the consensus, I would not trust the current fork unless new blades are installed due to risk of propagation of the crack. Nothing scares me more than a sudden catastrophic fork failure, save for the more probable incident of a high speed dooring. There must be a number of qualified frame builders within shipping distance who could remove the compromised blades and install new blades with matching dimensions for the cost of an Ottowa Senators date night. That's the eventual approach I would explore.

Edit: New fork looks like a good place holder.