25mm & 27mm a little too plush for pavement?
02-09-16, 12:35 PM
#101
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My thought is that the combination of wheel and tire are part of what is behind the wider trend. The overall aerodynamic profile is considered and wider may generate more "lift" at realistic yaw angles and pro speeds. I really don't go at pro speed much so if someone tells me the rolling resistance is less and I damage fewer rims when riding, what's not to pretend as true?
02-09-16, 05:57 PM
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As to the wider bit, no. Width is not the deciding but only a contributing factor to overall strength. But that is not why carbon rims are wider. They do that for aero reasons. And again, even if you have a 25mm wheel (that is about the max spec today), you certainly can design the bed to accept a 20mm tire. As a matter of fact, the bed can accept anything from 20-30mm tires.
Do you or have you ever owned carbon rims? I've owned several over the last decade. No matter the design, "narrow" or "wide", they are all stronger and stiffer than any aluminum rim. Your conspiracy theory is just plain wrong.
02-09-16, 07:28 PM
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OMG will people stop presenting data with misleading Y axis scales!!!!
And this data confirms exactly what I've been saying. Riding a 25 tire at 100psi has higher rolling resistance than riding a 23 tire at 120psi.
Another way to look at this is that wider tires allow you to lower PSI and not go slower. But if you're riding wider tires *and* lower pressures (come on, admit that you are), then you're probably NOT going faster.
And this data confirms exactly what I've been saying. Riding a 25 tire at 100psi has higher rolling resistance than riding a 23 tire at 120psi.
Another way to look at this is that wider tires allow you to lower PSI and not go slower. But if you're riding wider tires *and* lower pressures (come on, admit that you are), then you're probably NOT going faster.
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02-09-16, 07:30 PM
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Somewhat on topic, for those riding hooked bead rims and concerned of pinch flats, might consider the Tufo C S33 tubular clincher. Blind as I am, done some bone jarring idiot smacks on pot holes. Quite amazing the abuse they take and NEVER a pinch flat. Riding the 21 mm width, this version also seems to have a slight heavier sidewall and can run much lower PSI than recommended. Only complaint is the awful and loud logo on the sidewalls.
The logo starts conversation:
"Tufo?"
"No, a burger for me, thanks."
"I mean your tires."
"Actually, I just got up, and this is the first rest stop. I feel pretty good."
"Are those tubulars?"
"Yes."
"I didn't know those rims came in a tubular."
"They don't."
(shakes head and walks away..."expletive" deleted)
See, you have to have the logo, Scott.
Just have to.
Last edited by RobbieTunes; 02-10-16 at 06:17 AM.
02-09-16, 08:08 PM
#109
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Bike weight is a regulated minimum by the UCI and is irrelevant. Rider weight is solely at the discretion of the rider.
As to the wider bit, no. Width is not the deciding but only a contributing factor to overall strength. But that is not why carbon rims are wider. They do that for aero reasons. And again, even if you have a 25mm wheel (that is about the max spec today), you certainly can design the bed to accept a 20mm tire. As a matter of fact, the bed can accept anything from 20-30mm tires.
Do you or have you ever owned carbon rims? I've owned several over the last decade. No matter the design, "narrow" or "wide", they are all stronger and stiffer than any aluminum rim. Your conspiracy theory is just plain wrong.
As to the wider bit, no. Width is not the deciding but only a contributing factor to overall strength. But that is not why carbon rims are wider. They do that for aero reasons. And again, even if you have a 25mm wheel (that is about the max spec today), you certainly can design the bed to accept a 20mm tire. As a matter of fact, the bed can accept anything from 20-30mm tires.
Do you or have you ever owned carbon rims? I've owned several over the last decade. No matter the design, "narrow" or "wide", they are all stronger and stiffer than any aluminum rim. Your conspiracy theory is just plain wrong.
We are on two different pages.
02-09-16, 08:09 PM
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^ because that hoosier is wider, does it have less rolling resistance?
02-09-16, 09:05 PM
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If you reduce your contact patch to just the rim side walls, does than make you faster or slower? What if its a tubular rim, with no tire? What if you eat a big sandwich while riding and mayo gets on the tires? does that reduce you your rolling resistance since mayo has oil in it?
02-10-16, 06:05 AM
#113
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I tried riding without rims once but I couldn't get the tires to stay positioned on the hubs. Maybe if I'd used tubulars, with tape instead of glue.
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02-10-16, 11:06 AM
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02-10-16, 11:37 AM
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I'd not ridden on 27" in a while- maybe decades. When I got my 68 Paramount put together, I remembered what a treat they were! Oddly, I also found that my Paramount got me there faster than my Guerciotti despite the 25mm tires on the Italian steed... but roads are rough in the Twin Cities due to it being either winter or that other season. The softer ride of the 27x1 1/4" tires really did seem to help- I got there with more energy. Something to be said for comfort...
02-10-16, 02:50 PM
#119
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This is classic & vintage, yes? Back in the day if you wanted fast tires you used tubulars, period. It wasn't until '72-73 they made tubulars as narrow as 23mm. Even track tires were 'wide'. Criterium Setas were 24-25mm, exotic stuff like #1 Reds were about the same. And tubulars were always hard to get ahold of, so classic riders used what they could find. That might mean Campionatos, which were around 29-30mm. They fit into any classic frame.
On the other side, Lon Haldeman is a darn classic rider by most standards. All of his rides that created the legend were done on Panaracer Rapides, which were 150 grams and 17mm wide. Lon is and was a big guy, by current thinking 28mm should be as narrow as he could go. I never noticed the 17mm tires slowing him down.
About that contact patch. If total weight of bike and rider is 200# and each tire has 100 psi (that's pounds per square inch) the bike has two square inches of rubber on the road. If each tire has 50psi the bike has four square inches of rubber on the road. It does not matter what width the tire is. All that matters is total weight and inflation pressure.
On the other side, Lon Haldeman is a darn classic rider by most standards. All of his rides that created the legend were done on Panaracer Rapides, which were 150 grams and 17mm wide. Lon is and was a big guy, by current thinking 28mm should be as narrow as he could go. I never noticed the 17mm tires slowing him down.
About that contact patch. If total weight of bike and rider is 200# and each tire has 100 psi (that's pounds per square inch) the bike has two square inches of rubber on the road. If each tire has 50psi the bike has four square inches of rubber on the road. It does not matter what width the tire is. All that matters is total weight and inflation pressure.
02-10-16, 03:20 PM
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About that contact patch. If total weight of bike and rider is 200# and each tire has 100 psi (that's pounds per square inch) the bike has two square inches of rubber on the road. If each tire has 50psi the bike has four square inches of rubber on the road. It does not matter what width the tire is. All that matters is total weight and inflation pressure.
02-15-16, 11:30 PM
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quote: jimmuller
"I tried riding without rims once but I couldn't get the tires to stay positioned on the hubs. Maybe if I'd used tubulars, with tape instead of glue."
------------------------------------------
All kidding aside, in the 1980's Clement made a tubular clincher, specific to mount on a hooked bead rim. (Different concept than the modern day Tufo tubular clincher that elevates the inner when inflated.)
Anyways, the Clement 2001 ?? had no base tape, of course mounted to a clincher rim, no glue or any adhesive needed. No way to fix them. Although today we have sealants and would probably work just fine.
"I tried riding without rims once but I couldn't get the tires to stay positioned on the hubs. Maybe if I'd used tubulars, with tape instead of glue."
------------------------------------------
All kidding aside, in the 1980's Clement made a tubular clincher, specific to mount on a hooked bead rim. (Different concept than the modern day Tufo tubular clincher that elevates the inner when inflated.)
Anyways, the Clement 2001 ?? had no base tape, of course mounted to a clincher rim, no glue or any adhesive needed. No way to fix them. Although today we have sealants and would probably work just fine.
Last edited by crank_addict; 02-15-16 at 11:36 PM.
02-17-16, 08:14 PM
#123
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I don't find 25 mm to be too plush for pavement, but then I don't find 38 mm to be too plush. I used to have inexpensive 22 mm tubulars on all my bikes, then gradually switched over to handmade 24-30 mm tubulars. These felt both faster and more comfortable than the cheaper, narrower tubulars, even though I was running lower pressures. Then I built a 650B bike with Compass Extralight 38 mm clinchers. These feel just as fast as nice tubulars, even though I run 45/50 psi F/R. You do feel the extra weight and softness, but they roll fast and feel smooth. I have a 25 km route that I ride regularly, and I'm essentially as fast on that 650 B with fenders as I am on any of my other bikes with high quality tubulars. I also noticed when I first started riding the 650B (about a year ago) that I didn't feel as tired after rides, which seemed to be because of the reduced vibration and road shock. So, like others, I'm really sold on the wider, supple tires, and now wouldn't ride on anything narrower than about 25 mm.
02-18-16, 03:38 PM
#124
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