Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Mystery frame!!

Old 05-11-16, 09:06 AM
  #1  
atalamark
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Mystery frame!!

Howdy folks!

I picked up a bike locally because the price was good and it had some good components that I could use for a current project.

I'm posting because I don't know what the frame is!

The seller listed as a Nishiki but the only reason he said this is because the crankset is a Nishiki tourist (Sugino).

The frame was repainted at some point.

My hunch is all the components (or most) are non original.

Here's what I know, and the rest you can see in the pics:

-serial # stamped on upper portion of head tube 1G23 133
-no rivet holes on head tube where a badge may have been, must have had decal/painted badge
-interesting lug work
-neat fork detail
-stamped rear dropouts with no hanger
-no top tube braze-ons but there are braze-ons elsewere including some for water bottle on down tube
-frame size is 56 c-t and 56 c-c top tube
-components I feel likely not original are very nice (Campy record high flange wheels, Cinelli stem/bars, Avocet saddle, campy downtube shifters, SunTour Cyclone front/rear der.

So I don't know enough about old Nishiki's to be able to say for certain but I'm feeling like this is something else....seems decently enough built, doesn't scream high end for sure but someone sure went the extra mile to set it up really well! The wheels spin like BUTTER holy cow.......haven't had record hubs in far too long.

Anyone have any thoughts on the origins of this frame? Help me solve this mystery!

thanks,

Mark in Olympia, Wa


atalamark is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 09:07 AM
  #2  
atalamark
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
BTW just another bit of info for the sleuths, the headset and bottom bracket both appear unmarked.
atalamark is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 09:29 AM
  #3  
Dylansbob
2k miles from the midwest
 
Dylansbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Washington
Posts: 651

Bikes: Retrospec AMOK low budget low trail - Polygon Bend RV - Bombtrack Arise

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
What size is the stem? Alot of Nishikis of that era used the Schwinn sized stem quill.
Dylansbob is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 09:30 AM
  #4  
USAZorro
Señor Member
 
USAZorro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florence, KY
Posts: 16,213

Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs

Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 695 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 9 Posts
I can't say that I've seen many bike makers (and I can't recall the ones I have seen) who stamp the serial number on the front of the head lug. That should narrow things down a lot.
__________________
In search of what to search for.
USAZorro is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 09:34 AM
  #5  
atalamark
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Serial #

Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
I can't say that I've seen many bike makers (and I can't recall the ones I have seen) who stamp the serial number on the front of the head lug. That should narrow things down a lot.

Yeah I've done quite a bit of searching on the internet for the serial number location and haven't turned up anything yet on this one........I bet someone has a clue..........
atalamark is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 09:36 AM
  #6  
atalamark
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well the stem is a Cinelli so I think that means the steering tube is standard (responding to stem question above)

mark
atalamark is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 09:56 AM
  #7  
T-Mar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,867
Mentioned: 434 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2491 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 74 Times in 67 Posts
I'm almost positive this is not a Nishiki. The major contractors for Nishiki were Kawamura, Katakura, Giant and Derby. All stamped their serial numbers on the bottom bracket shell and circa 1978-1984, Giant stamped a date code on the left, rear dropout.

Schwinn stamped serial numbers on the head tube, but typically it was at the bottom. One manufacturer who stamped their serial number on the collar of the top head lug was Bianchi, during the 1970s and very early 1980s. The serial number format is consistent for the period, so I'd be checking the bottom bracket threading, to see if it is Italian.
T-Mar is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 10:04 AM
  #8  
atalamark
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
I'm almost positive this is not a Nishiki. The major contractors for Nishiki were Kawamura, Katakura, Giant and Derby. All stamped their serial numbers on the bottom bracket shell and circa 1978-1984, Giant stamped a date code on the left, rear dropout.

Schwinn stamped serial numbers on the head tube, but typically it was at the bottom. One manufacturer who stamped their serial number on the collar of the top head lug was Bianchi, during the 1970s and very early 1980s. The serial number format is consistent for the period, so I'd be checking the bottom bracket threading, to see if it is Italian.

Bianchi eh? That's very interesting. I have my crank arm puller on loan right now but when I get it back I will have the cranks off and check out the bottom bracket. I guess I'll start looking at some old Bianchi pics to compare...

Mark
atalamark is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 10:18 AM
  #9  
atalamark
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Just saw a pic of a late 60's Bianchi with identical headset to the bike I have. Could be a coincidence but with all the Italian parts present on the bike, heck, maybe it IS a Bianchi????

Mark
atalamark is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 10:32 AM
  #10  
atalamark
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Here's an early 70's Bianchi that from afar looks very very similar.

No hanger on the rear dropout, same fork detail, similar lugs (can't say for sure without better pics).

Well this is a nice surprise, I wasn't thinking this was possibly an old Italian bike.

Bianchi 1971 or 1972 - Pedal Room
atalamark is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 10:33 AM
  #11  
T-Mar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,867
Mentioned: 434 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2491 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 74 Times in 67 Posts
Originally Posted by atalamark View Post
Bianchi eh? That's very interesting. I have my crank arm puller on loan right now but when I get it back I will have the cranks off and check out the bottom bracket. I guess I'll start looking at some old Bianchi pics to compare...

Mark
You may be able to read the stamping on the cups without using a puller. You'll see those style lugs on a lot of early 1970s Bianchi like the Rekord models.The bottle bosses look very high on the tube and were probably added later. I suspect this may be a Bianchi Rekord 71 with their hi-tensile tubing which was known as Tubi Calibrati 1-20.
T-Mar is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 10:39 AM
  #12  
atalamark
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
You may be able to read the stamping on the cups without using a puller. You'll see those style lugs on a lot of early 1970s Bianchi like the Rekord models.The bottle bosses look very high on the tube and were probably added later. I suspect this may be a Bianchi Rekord 71 with their hi-tensile tubing which was known as Tubi Calibrati 1-20.

I'm gonna hose the bike off today as there's a bit of old dirt/grime all over, then maybe I can read the BB.......for sure the headset is identical to the one on the Classic Rendezvous site where they have a pic from a late 60's bike.

The bummer at the moment is the chain has a few inches of seized links......I've sprayed them down with penetrant over night and I'm hoping to get them free enough to get the bike ride-worthy, the tires hold air and I don't think its been off the road for too long.

The downside, well, its technically slightly short for me!! Like I mentioned earlier I planned on using some parts for a current build but if this is in fact an old Bianchi I might restore it.

The upside, besides the possibility of this being an old Bianchi, is that I paid $60 for it!!

Mark
atalamark is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 10:51 AM
  #13  
T-Mar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,867
Mentioned: 434 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2491 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 74 Times in 67 Posts
Check out the head lugs and fork crown on this mid-1970s Bianchi 745.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Binchi 745.jpg (45.8 KB, 40 views)
T-Mar is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 11:14 AM
  #14  
atalamark
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
Check out the head lugs and fork crown on this mid-1970s Bianchi 745.

Yes!
atalamark is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 12:05 PM
  #15  
rando_couche
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,060
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 11 Posts
All the details say "60s-70s Italian". Atala maybe?

SP
OC, OR
.
rando_couche is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 01:36 PM
  #16  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,126
Mentioned: 213 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1626 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 28 Posts
Originally Posted by rando_couche View Post
All the details say "60s-70s Italian". Atala maybe?

SP
OC, OR
.
Not with that crown, headset, serial placement, Agrati "AM" lugset. Edoardo.
juvela is online now  
Old 05-11-16, 02:22 PM
  #17  
atalamark
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by juvela View Post
Not with that crown, headset, serial placement, Agrati "AM" lugset. Edoardo.
Well I've almost gotten the chain working and hope to get the bike out for a spin. I've seen crusty old chains that I knew would be hell to get working again but this one LOOKS good......but 3-4 links were seized. I had to use penetrating, trying to break them free...even resorted to get the chain tool out to move the pins in/out which freed up the worst but they still don't move good enough. More oil!

Anyway I'm kinda happy about this. I was looking at the frame last night and wondering if it had European origins but ended up thinking nah, probably not.

This would be the first old Bianchi I've owned (and I've had Atala, Gitane, Peugeot, Olmo, Bottechia, Miyata, Motobecane, Holdworth, Urago, Dawes, Schwinn).

Excited to see how she rides, even if its a bit small (although I just raised the seat post to an approx. height and it actually doesn't seem as small as I thought.....the '88 Le Tour I'm riding now is a 58cm and shows a little more seat post).

mark
atalamark is offline  
Old 05-11-16, 02:40 PM
  #18  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,126
Mentioned: 213 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1626 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 28 Posts
Sounds great mark.

Please keep us posted as to how she is coming along.

btw - frame's bulge-formed head is Agrati "AM" serie nr. 000.8046. seat lug is Agrati "AM" serie nr. 022.8049. dropouts are Agrati nr. 000.8002. fork ends are Agrati nr. 000.8010.

Last edited by juvela; 05-11-16 at 02:50 PM. Reason: additiion
juvela is online now  
Old 05-12-16, 09:17 AM
  #19  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,247
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 15 Posts
I agree very likely an old Bianchi and also wonder if this has had a repair or addition of "pinch ears" on the back of the seat lug...maybe this originally had a separate (chrome) pinch COLLAR that fit on top of that lug...?
unworthy1 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
batna22
Framebuilders
6
06-11-18 09:33 AM
GoldenThiefBug
Electronics, Lighting, & Gadgets
28
09-14-17 09:04 AM
peazweag
Classic & Vintage
91
06-11-12 05:52 PM
sugarcubed
Fifty Plus (50+)
20
09-30-09 08:45 AM
kcbike
General Cycling Discussion
1
08-06-04 09:44 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.