Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Help ID probable higher-end Raleigh

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Help ID probable higher-end Raleigh

Old 02-12-17, 08:41 PM
  #1  
artclone
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,272

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Suberbe, '92 (German) Centurion Equipe, '85 Schwinn Peloton, 1983ish Zunow Road Racer project, '69 Squanch Super Tourer, 1980 Bianchi Super Corsa, '82 Austro-Daimler Vent Noir, '89 Miyata 914 project, 1982ish Bianchi Rallye

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Help ID maybe not Raleigh

Edit: Almost certainly not a Raleigh!

Picked up this bike @obrentharris found on CL
needing rescue. Think it could be a Raleigh Professional but the bird's mouth headlugs are less elaborate than any I can find and there's no serial under BB (and nothing filed off). So any info appreciated. If there's an alternate place to look for SN please let me know and I'll scrape off the paint there.

Has fastback stays, Cinelli-style sloping fork crown, Campy dropouts with outlets (sheldon said only UK kept eyelets on the Pro) round (not dimpled) chain stays, brazeon under tube for shifter clamp stop (I think).

Ad pic:


My pics:






Last edited by artclone; 02-15-17 at 02:16 PM.
artclone is offline  
Old 02-12-17, 08:52 PM
  #2  
nlerner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 14,260
Mentioned: 343 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2191 Post(s)
Liked 1,774 Times in 919 Posts
Does the head tube have holes for a head badge? I don't think I've seen a Raleigh with that downtube braze-on stop for the FD housing. Lots of Brit builders used those lugs (Hayden?), and the lack of serial # might point to a really small operation.
nlerner is offline  
Old 02-12-17, 08:54 PM
  #3  
artclone
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,272

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Suberbe, '92 (German) Centurion Equipe, '85 Schwinn Peloton, 1983ish Zunow Road Racer project, '69 Squanch Super Tourer, 1980 Bianchi Super Corsa, '82 Austro-Daimler Vent Noir, '89 Miyata 914 project, 1982ish Bianchi Rallye

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Does the head tube have holes for a head badge? I don't think I've seen a Raleigh with that downtube braze-on stop for the FD housing. Lots of Brit builders used those lugs (Hayden?), and the lack of serial # might point to a really small operation.
Thanks. The bike was single-speeded and coated with thick paint so hard to tell if there's holes under there. Good tip! I'll investigate.
artclone is offline  
Old 02-12-17, 09:05 PM
  #4  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 10,553
Mentioned: 300 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2445 Post(s)
Liked 716 Times in 577 Posts
-----

Looked closely at frame when first posted and agreed it is similar in appearance to a Raleigh Pro but there is a detail in the "inside corner" of the Brampton Victor seat lug that is different.

The full-sloping crown employed by Raleigh has different proportions than the one on this frameset.

Doubt that a Pro late enough for a Brampton Victor would have eyelets on its 1010 ends. Earlier iterations of the Pro, yes.

-----
juvela is online now  
Old 02-12-17, 09:10 PM
  #5  
artclone
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,272

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Suberbe, '92 (German) Centurion Equipe, '85 Schwinn Peloton, 1983ish Zunow Road Racer project, '69 Squanch Super Tourer, 1980 Bianchi Super Corsa, '82 Austro-Daimler Vent Noir, '89 Miyata 914 project, 1982ish Bianchi Rallye

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanks @juvela. And I sanded headtube and found no badge fixing holes @nlerner.

Interesting! Changing title from probable Raleigh to maybe not Raleigh . . .
artclone is offline  
Old 02-12-17, 09:19 PM
  #6  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 10,553
Mentioned: 300 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2445 Post(s)
Liked 716 Times in 577 Posts
Originally Posted by artclone View Post
Thanks @juvela. And I sanded headtube and found no badge fixing holes @nlerner.

Interesting! Changing title from probable Raleigh to maybe not Raleigh . . .
When I looked at it when posted earlier was only able to conclude "not Raleigh." Definitely British and in the late '60's to early 70's window. Looks more "production" than "artisianl."

The only wylde thought which glided in was Condor - not an ID assertion, just a wylde idea...
juvela is online now  
Old 02-12-17, 09:25 PM
  #7  
USAZorro
Señor Member
 
USAZorro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hardy, VA
Posts: 16,917

Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs

Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1029 Post(s)
Liked 297 Times in 208 Posts
I have a Grand Sport with no serial number to be found anywhere (well, I didn't check the steerer).

I'm also skeptical of it being a Raleigh. It does have the fastback seat stay treatment that began on Professionals in 1971, but the head lugs match what Raleigh used on the Gran Sport, not the Professional.

Other places to look for serial numbers are dropouts and seat tubes.
__________________
In search of what to search for.
USAZorro is offline  
Old 02-12-17, 10:11 PM
  #8  
artclone
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,272

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Suberbe, '92 (German) Centurion Equipe, '85 Schwinn Peloton, 1983ish Zunow Road Racer project, '69 Squanch Super Tourer, 1980 Bianchi Super Corsa, '82 Austro-Daimler Vent Noir, '89 Miyata 914 project, 1982ish Bianchi Rallye

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
I'm leaning towards any number of late-60s/early-70s British builders. Too tricky to figure out unless there's marks under under the paint.

Pretty light bike rides pretty nice in the one speed it has. Think I'll paint this one myself!
artclone is offline  
Old 02-12-17, 10:12 PM
  #9  
nlerner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 14,260
Mentioned: 343 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2191 Post(s)
Liked 1,774 Times in 919 Posts
I have a '73 Condor Italia that has some resemblances to this frame but enough differences (fork crown shaped differently, lugs more filed, has a serial # under the BB) that I don't think this is a Condor.
nlerner is offline  
Old 02-12-17, 10:26 PM
  #10  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 10,553
Mentioned: 300 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2445 Post(s)
Liked 716 Times in 577 Posts
Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
I have a '73 Condor Italia that has some resemblances to this frame but enough differences (fork crown shaped differently, lugs more filed, has a serial # under the BB) that I don't think this is a Condor.
Thanks for the response.

Have seen several Condors which were clearly high-end artisanal works of great beauty.

Owned a new Condor frameset which was very rough - looked like a student frame.

Will be interested to follow thread to read if an identification is possible. So many hundreds of Brit builders...

-----
juvela is online now  
Old 02-15-17, 02:12 PM
  #11  
artclone
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,272

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Suberbe, '92 (German) Centurion Equipe, '85 Schwinn Peloton, 1983ish Zunow Road Racer project, '69 Squanch Super Tourer, 1980 Bianchi Super Corsa, '82 Austro-Daimler Vent Noir, '89 Miyata 914 project, 1982ish Bianchi Rallye

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Still struggling with this one. The only seat cluster I've seen with the same little hole cutout is the one on the Geoffrey Butler (see above), which says nothing about the actual builder anyway since GB didn't build frames. I pulled the fork and there's no stamp there either. Odd copper plating on parts like the dropouts. Maybe chrome wore off and this is intermediate plating?


The fork crown is almost identical to the original Cinelli types but doesn't have raised areas near the brake holes. There's some Holdsworth Fastback Mistrals with the same headlugs, but there's not enough pictures of the seat cluster out there to get a good look. Seatpost measurement suggests Reynolds 531.

Brakes and crank are late 60s/early 70s (no number marking on Strada, etc). But who knows if original.

If I don't find a builder I'm thinking of building it up in the style of a Raleigh Super Tourer (with a made-up make and model tbd).

Last edited by artclone; 02-15-17 at 03:16 PM.
artclone is offline  
Old 02-15-17, 03:53 PM
  #12  
USAZorro
Señor Member
 
USAZorro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hardy, VA
Posts: 16,917

Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs

Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1029 Post(s)
Liked 297 Times in 208 Posts
Might be worth joining Classic Rendezvous for. There are a few very knowledgeable Anglophiles who are there, but not here. Fair chance one of them could give a better idea.
__________________
In search of what to search for.
USAZorro is offline  
Old 02-15-17, 04:08 PM
  #13  
artclone
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,272

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Suberbe, '92 (German) Centurion Equipe, '85 Schwinn Peloton, 1983ish Zunow Road Racer project, '69 Squanch Super Tourer, 1980 Bianchi Super Corsa, '82 Austro-Daimler Vent Noir, '89 Miyata 914 project, 1982ish Bianchi Rallye

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
Might be worth joining Classic Rendezvous for. There are a few very knowledgeable Anglophiles who are there, but not here. Fair chance one of them could give a better idea.

Just applied. Thank you!
artclone is offline  
Old 02-15-17, 04:35 PM
  #14  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 10,553
Mentioned: 300 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2445 Post(s)
Liked 716 Times in 577 Posts
Originally Posted by artclone View Post
Odd copper plating on parts like the dropouts. Maybe chrome wore off and this is intermediate plating?


Spot on.

Recall the phrase "triple electro chrome plated"?

This means copper, then nickel, then chrome.

Rather than wear, more likely due to etching. But either way, the same result.

Your idea of a Raleigh Super Tourer type concept sounds just great. Will look forward to following the build.

-----
juvela is online now  
Old 02-17-17, 12:00 PM
  #15  
artclone
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,272

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Suberbe, '92 (German) Centurion Equipe, '85 Schwinn Peloton, 1983ish Zunow Road Racer project, '69 Squanch Super Tourer, 1980 Bianchi Super Corsa, '82 Austro-Daimler Vent Noir, '89 Miyata 914 project, 1982ish Bianchi Rallye

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Classic Rendezvous is a wonderful forum! Consensus seems to be that this bike is more early/mid 60s than late based on the FD brazeon. But I'm getting many different guesses about make. So far it's:


Harry Quinn
Holdsworth
Woodrup (builder Kevin Sayles himself thinks it might be one he made with Woodrup)
E. G. Bates
artclone is offline  
Old 02-17-17, 01:21 PM
  #16  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 10,553
Mentioned: 300 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2445 Post(s)
Liked 716 Times in 577 Posts
-----

Good detective work to find that Geoffrey Butler photo!

Thanks for the update.

Regarding front derailleur housing stop - the Campag catalogue of 1967 was still showing the Record front mech with housing stop. VB gives a date of 1972 for their first version without housing stop. It could have been slightly earlier. The 1972 date is not given as a changeover date but rather a date for that specific mech shown in their listing.

One feature not shown in photos is whether or not gear hanger has spring hole for the Sport rear mech.

-----
juvela is online now  
Old 02-17-17, 01:41 PM
  #17  
artclone
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,272

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Suberbe, '92 (German) Centurion Equipe, '85 Schwinn Peloton, 1983ish Zunow Road Racer project, '69 Squanch Super Tourer, 1980 Bianchi Super Corsa, '82 Austro-Daimler Vent Noir, '89 Miyata 914 project, 1982ish Bianchi Rallye

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
You are a mind-reader @juvela. I was wondering what kind of front derailleur I need to use that stop.

I'm not familiar with it but someone on classic Rendezvouz says you use a bit of housing and a Simplex derailleur? It sounds like you are saying I can use a certain model Campy FD? I can't picture how either would be cabled up.

I'll see about a spring hole on the rear hanger. I don't know what that it either!

A whole new world with this early "lightweight". My oldest bike previously is my '67 Raleigh Superbe, but obviously I don't need to worry about derailleurs on it!
artclone is offline  
Old 02-17-17, 01:45 PM
  #18  
artclone
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,272

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Suberbe, '92 (German) Centurion Equipe, '85 Schwinn Peloton, 1983ish Zunow Road Racer project, '69 Squanch Super Tourer, 1980 Bianchi Super Corsa, '82 Austro-Daimler Vent Noir, '89 Miyata 914 project, 1982ish Bianchi Rallye

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
I'm beginning to think the lugs are simply off the shelf without any customization. Here's a 70s E. G. Bates with the seat cluster:

artclone is offline  
Old 02-17-17, 01:53 PM
  #19  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 10,553
Mentioned: 300 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2445 Post(s)
Liked 716 Times in 577 Posts
-----

Regarding front mech -

The original Campag Record model launched 1959-60. It came with a housing stop on the body up through the late 1960's. One small variation is whether or not the housing stop is slotted for the gear cable. The earliest ones were non-slotted and then the slot was added.

There are plenty of other front mechs designed to work with housing so you do not need to necessarily look for an early Campag Record. A new old stock example came up on ebay recently priced by seller at $499 so they can get dear... There are plenty of Huret and Simplex models, for example, designed for use with housing.

---

Regarding Bates in photo - how do we know it is a "real" one when it has normal blades?!?!

-----

Last edited by juvela; 02-17-17 at 01:59 PM. Reason: addition
juvela is online now  
Old 02-18-17, 11:14 PM
  #20  
artclone
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,272

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Suberbe, '92 (German) Centurion Equipe, '85 Schwinn Peloton, 1983ish Zunow Road Racer project, '69 Squanch Super Tourer, 1980 Bianchi Super Corsa, '82 Austro-Daimler Vent Noir, '89 Miyata 914 project, 1982ish Bianchi Rallye

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
I think I'm getting a lot warmer. A Classic Rendevouz member thinks it is a early 70s W. F. Holdsworth "Putney shop build, not factory*" and pointed me to this picture which matches most details exactly:



The only major differences are that it has a riveted headbadge (mine has no holes) and its owner found a stamped serial number. Edit: Just noticed this one has no mount points on dropouts, another difference.

*Not sure what this means exactly yet. But I'm learning about British bikes pretty fast now.

(and @juvela I wish I had a Bates with those crazy forks! Apparently E. G. Bates split from that Bates to build his own bikes, so they are two different companies. But the same Bates.)

Last edited by artclone; 02-19-17 at 12:07 AM.
artclone is offline  
Old 02-19-17, 08:52 AM
  #21  
USAZorro
Señor Member
 
USAZorro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hardy, VA
Posts: 16,917

Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs

Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1029 Post(s)
Liked 297 Times in 208 Posts
Of the people who've replied on CR, I'm leaning towards Kevin Sayles' suggestions. With all the years he's spent as a framebuilder, he spent the time he was building frames with an awareness of other builders' bicycles details such as those we've been trying to sort out. I've been waiting to hear Norris Lockley weigh in, as he has a vast knowledge of builders through the time period in question, and I think I can count the number of the times he's been incorrect on one hand with a couple of fingers left over.
__________________
In search of what to search for.
USAZorro is offline  
Old 02-20-17, 11:49 AM
  #22  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 10,553
Mentioned: 300 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2445 Post(s)
Liked 716 Times in 577 Posts
------

Headlugs on silver machine are a Prugnant pattern used extensively by Holdsworthy.

Did CR participants identify the Brampton Victor style seat lug on your frameset?

Thanks for sharing the investigation results.

------
juvela is online now  
Old 02-20-17, 12:26 PM
  #23  
SkyDog75
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 3,794

Bikes: Bianchi San Mateo and a few others

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 633 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by juvela View Post
There are plenty of other front mechs designed to work with housing so you do not need to necessarily look for an early Campag Record. A new old stock example came up on ebay recently priced by seller at $499 so they can get dear... There are plenty of Huret and Simplex models, for example, designed for use with housing.
A number of SunTour models were also designed to have housing run to the derailleur.

Just using examples from my own garage, the Compe-V and Spirt are built specifically to accept cable housing. A number of other models, including at least some Cyclone versions, had a threaded-in removable cable stop so you could set it up with either housing or bare cable.
SkyDog75 is offline  
Old 02-20-17, 12:35 PM
  #24  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 15,611
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1793 Post(s)
Liked 655 Times in 509 Posts
I would chemically strip the paint as it is not original and not in very good shape, there may be a few build details in the raw that help point you in the right direction. I think 60's more likely than 70's, the suggestions mentioned are all alternately plausible.
repechage is offline  
Old 02-20-17, 12:37 PM
  #25  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 10,553
Mentioned: 300 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2445 Post(s)
Liked 716 Times in 577 Posts
Originally Posted by SkyDog75 View Post
A number of SunTour models were also designed to have housing run to the derailleur.

Just using examples from my own garage, the Compe-V and Spirt are built specifically to accept cable housing. A number of other models, including at least some Cyclone versions, had a threaded-in removable cable stop so you could set it up with either housing or bare cable.
Yes indeed! Good point, no argument.

Keep in mind poster has dated frame as later sixties. The Maeda mechs mentioned did not exist at that time. A period correct build has been discussed.

-----
juvela is online now  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
TR3guy
Classic & Vintage
6
09-19-19 05:11 AM
cudak888
Classic & Vintage
26
09-06-19 09:05 AM
CuttersRidge
Classic & Vintage
7
01-28-16 09:32 PM
fas2c
Classic & Vintage
2
04-27-11 05:24 PM
cudak888
Classic & Vintage
17
02-11-11 11:38 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.