Edit: Almost certainly not a Raleigh!

Picked up this bike [MENTION=306057]obrentharris[/MENTION] found on CL
needing rescue. Think it could be a Raleigh Professional but the bird's mouth headlugs are less elaborate than any I can find and there's no serial under BB (and nothing filed off). So any info appreciated. If there's an alternate place to look for SN please let me know and I'll scrape off the paint there.

Has fastback stays, Cinelli-style sloping fork crown, Campy dropouts with outlets (sheldon said only UK kept eyelets on the Pro) round (not dimpled) chain stays, brazeon under tube for shifter clamp stop (I think).

Ad pic:


My pics:

Does the head tube have holes for a head badge? I don't think I've seen a Raleigh with that downtube braze-on stop for the FD housing. Lots of Brit builders used those lugs (Hayden?), and the lack of serial # might point to a really small operation.

Thanks. The bike was single-speeded and coated with thick paint so hard to tell if there's holes under there. Good tip! I'll investigate.

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Looked closely at frame when first posted and agreed it is similar in appearance to a Raleigh Pro but there is a detail in the "inside corner" of the Brampton Victor seat lug that is different.

The full-sloping crown employed by Raleigh has different proportions than the one on this frameset.

Doubt that a Pro late enough for a Brampton Victor would have eyelets on its 1010 ends. Earlier iterations of the Pro, yes.

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Thanks [MENTION=333224]juvela[/MENTION]. And I sanded headtube and found no badge fixing holes [MENTION=45088]nlerner[/MENTION].

Interesting! Changing title from probable Raleigh to maybe not Raleigh . . .

When I looked at it when posted earlier was only able to conclude "not Raleigh." Definitely British and in the late '60's to early 70's window. Looks more "production" than "artisianl."

The only wylde thought which glided in was Condor - not an ID assertion, just a wylde idea...

I have a Grand Sport with no serial number to be found anywhere (well, I didn't check the steerer).

I'm also skeptical of it being a Raleigh. It does have the fastback seat stay treatment that began on Professionals in 1971, but the head lugs match what Raleigh used on the Gran Sport, not the Professional.

Other places to look for serial numbers are dropouts and seat tubes.

I'm leaning towards any number of late-60s/early-70s British builders. Too tricky to figure out unless there's marks under under the paint.

Pretty light bike rides pretty nice in the one speed it has. Think I'll paint this one myself!

I have a '73 Condor Italia that has some resemblances to this frame but enough differences (fork crown shaped differently, lugs more filed, has a serial # under the BB) that I don't think this is a Condor.

Thanks for the response.

Have seen several Condors which were clearly high-end artisanal works of great beauty.

Owned a new Condor frameset which was very rough - looked like a student frame.

Will be interested to follow thread to read if an identification is possible. So many hundreds of Brit builders...

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Still struggling with this one. The only seat cluster I've seen with the same little hole cutout is the one on the Geoffrey Butler (see above), which says nothing about the actual builder anyway since GB didn't build frames. I pulled the fork and there's no stamp there either. Odd copper plating on parts like the dropouts. Maybe chrome wore off and this is intermediate plating?


The fork crown is almost identical to the original Cinelli types but doesn't have raised areas near the brake holes. There's some Holdsworth Fastback Mistrals with the same headlugs, but there's not enough pictures of the seat cluster out there to get a good look. Seatpost measurement suggests Reynolds 531.

Brakes and crank are late 60s/early 70s (no number marking on Strada, etc). But who knows if original.

If I don't find a builder I'm thinking of building it up in the style of a Raleigh Super Tourer (with a made-up make and model tbd).

Might be worth joining Classic Rendezvous for. There are a few very knowledgeable Anglophiles who are there, but not here. Fair chance one of them could give a better idea.

Just applied. Thank you!

Spot on.

Recall the phrase "triple electro chrome plated"?

This means copper, then nickel, then chrome.

Rather than wear, more likely due to etching. But either way, the same result.

Your idea of a Raleigh Super Tourer type concept sounds just great. Will look forward to following the build.

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Classic Rendezvous is a wonderful forum! Consensus seems to be that this bike is more early/mid 60s than late based on the FD brazeon. But I'm getting many different guesses about make. So far it's:


Harry Quinn
Holdsworth
Woodrup (builder Kevin Sayles himself thinks it might be one he made with Woodrup)
E. G. Bates

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Good detective work to find that Geoffrey Butler photo!

Thanks for the update.

Regarding front derailleur housing stop - the Campag catalogue of 1967 was still showing the Record front mech with housing stop. VB gives a date of 1972 for their first version without housing stop. It could have been slightly earlier. The 1972 date is not given as a changeover date but rather a date for that specific mech shown in their listing.

One feature not shown in photos is whether or not gear hanger has spring hole for the Sport rear mech.

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You are a mind-reader [MENTION=333224]juvela[/MENTION]. I was wondering what kind of front derailleur I need to use that stop.

I'm not familiar with it but someone on classic Rendezvouz says you use a bit of housing and a Simplex derailleur? It sounds like you are saying I can use a certain model Campy FD? I can't picture how either would be cabled up.

I'll see about a spring hole on the rear hanger. I don't know what that it either!

A whole new world with this early "lightweight". My oldest bike previously is my '67 Raleigh Superbe, but obviously I don't need to worry about derailleurs on it!

I'm beginning to think the lugs are simply off the shelf without any customization. Here's a 70s E. G. Bates with the seat cluster:

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Regarding front mech -

The original Campag Record model launched 1959-60. It came with a housing stop on the body up through the late 1960's. One small variation is whether or not the housing stop is slotted for the gear cable. The earliest ones were non-slotted and then the slot was added.

There are plenty of other front mechs designed to work with housing so you do not need to necessarily look for an early Campag Record. A new old stock example came up on ebay recently priced by seller at $499 so they can get dear... There are plenty of Huret and Simplex models, for example, designed for use with housing.

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Regarding Bates in photo - how do we know it is a "real" one when it has normal blades?!?!

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I think I'm getting a lot warmer. A Classic Rendevouz member thinks it is a early 70s W. F. Holdsworth "Putney shop build, not factory*" and pointed me to this picture which matches most details exactly:



The only major differences are that it has a riveted headbadge (mine has no holes) and its owner found a stamped serial number. Edit: Just noticed this one has no mount points on dropouts, another difference.

*Not sure what this means exactly yet. But I'm learning about British bikes pretty fast now.

(and [MENTION=333224]juvela[/MENTION] I wish I had a Bates with those crazy forks! Apparently E. G. Bates split from that Bates to build his own bikes, so they are two different companies. But the same Bates.)

Of the people who've replied on CR, I'm leaning towards Kevin Sayles' suggestions. With all the years he's spent as a framebuilder, he spent the time he was building frames with an awareness of other builders' bicycles details such as those we've been trying to sort out. I've been waiting to hear Norris Lockley weigh in, as he has a vast knowledge of builders through the time period in question, and I think I can count the number of the times he's been incorrect on one hand with a couple of fingers left over.

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Headlugs on silver machine are a Prugnant pattern used extensively by Holdsworthy.

Did CR participants identify the Brampton Victor style seat lug on your frameset?

Thanks for sharing the investigation results.

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A number of SunTour models were also designed to have housing run to the derailleur.

Just using examples from my own garage, the Compe-V and Spirt are built specifically to accept cable housing. A number of other models, including at least some Cyclone versions, had a threaded-in removable cable stop so you could set it up with either housing or bare cable.

I would chemically strip the paint as it is not original and not in very good shape, there may be a few build details in the raw that help point you in the right direction. I think 60's more likely than 70's, the suggestions mentioned are all alternately plausible.

Yes indeed! Good point, no argument.

Keep in mind poster has dated frame as later sixties. The Maeda mechs mentioned did not exist at that time. A period correct build has been discussed.

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