I received a vintage Fiamme rim in the mail today that has several spots on the inner diameter that are warped outward from having too much spoke tension. I have a variety of tools at my disposal to tap on the rim a bit to see if I can flatten it out, and am sure it is not structurally too bad... So my question is twofold:

A) Am I wrong? Is this bad bad?

B) Should I complain to the seller, who did not mention this in his advertisement?

Thanks!

-Gregory

These photos show two of the worst examples, out of several that are notable from a foot or two away, and quite a few more that are very subtle.

Considering the labor time and cost of spokes, hubs, bearings, rim strip, tube and tire necessary to build a good wheel, I would not want to waste all that on a rim of questionable integrity. Aluminum is not forgiving of deformation so I would say that rim is toast.

I just set the rim on the horn of an anvil (so that the ID was supporting rather than the leading edge) and tapped the areas affected with the flat of a ball peen hammer. It did not take more than three or four light taps to bring the material down almost completely. The aluminum was not deformed greater than its thickness in any case, so it looks alright now...

Does anyone have experience with rim failure from such minor deformation? These are not expensive rims, but they are old and not easy to find. The idea of throwing one away just because the spoke holes were pulled out in a few places seems a pity.

Just as you can't unring a bell, you can't effectively hammer back the dimples from prior over tension. To be clear, you can hammer them back, but you can't restore the original strength that would prevent them from sagging back out under load.

Either build them or not at your option, but what you see is what you get, and you'll just have to build around it.

Nipple washers might or might not help wring a few more miles out of those rims. Just my two cents.

I have a very cheap bike years ago which pulled a few spoke holes out like that (I think I popped a wheelie on it and the landing was too brutal). Being a cheapskate, and since I had nothing to lose, I also tapped the rims back but then I reinforced those spoke nipples with a steel flat washer before retightening the spokes. I can't vouch for the longevity of the repair but it certainly held for a few rides.

Without reinforcement though I believe the aluminum will bend right back out.

This is an older tubular rim, and I believe nipple washers are suggested for building it up in any case. I understand that the aluminum is stressed and has lost some strength due to being stretched out. However, I wonder just how much! You have all made me interested in building it up just to see what happens now...

I just checked Ebay and NOS this rim runs about $60 shipped from European vendors, while I got this relatively clean used set (albeit with this issue!) for $9 + 40 shipping. The other rim exhibits no such issues, so that's at least one keeper for the price. I'll report back if I do decide to build it up, or else purchase a new rim. It'll be a couple of weeks before I get time to do anything with it. Thanks!

-Gregory

In my mind, the rim is shot.

There are many things, I will attempt to repair but a stretched spoke hole is not one of them. Also, when I build wheels without reinforcing eyelets, I use load spreading washers. I have to make them, myself, out of regular washers, which I then dimple to match that of the rim, and hope for the best. So far, no worries.

+1


Done this on several beater bikes. Since none have been retired b/c of that issue, I can't say HOW good a fix it is.


IME it's proven good enough for casual use.

Seller owes you every cent of your money back. No buts.

I echo everyone else: don't take a chance with a vintage, aluminum rim. Too much is riding on it

DD

If you're determined to reuse the rim, use the lightest gauge of double-butted spokes to reduce the stresses on the rim.

Ask yourself, is it worth it to risk the possible failure while riding and any possible outcome? What are you intending to do with the rim and the bike it gets mounted on? Anything that will place stresses on weakened aluminum is an open invitation to the wheel to possibly taco from a failure. I don't see a washer being the solution, not enough of the stress is spread out to make a difference.

Not a structural engineer, but I had to do a good bit of failure analysis of metal pieces, structural steel, bolts, and welds mainly, in my work in construction quality control and engineering. I wouldn't use the wheel myself, or give it to anyone to use. Perhaps one of the gentlemen or ladies here with more experience in metallurgy, materials engineering or structural engineering can enlighten us about the possibilities.

As DD said above, the seller owes you every cent back, there is a reason the rims were so inexpensive and you found our why. JMHO. If you do decide to build the wheel up using the rim please report on its future condition and usage of you would. Best of luck with your decision.

To be real concise without elaboration, it's over for that rim.

Thought I might mention this, although it is a bit of a side track...

When I get a rim with that kind of damage or a crankset with a crack, I get out the hacksaw and remove all temptation! It really hurts to cut a Campy SR drive crank arm in half, but that way the danger is eliminated and so is any temptation to "take a chance". I might add that the same goes for alloy frames. Cut up a Pinarello(someone's better half ran over the bike in the driveway), a long time ago, and put the components on this Proctor-Townsend...

I wouldn't build a wheel with that rim. Not worth the cost, the hassle and the possible injury should I be riding and it fails.

You could use them to pre stretch tires.

Add my vote to those that say they are toast. Generally speaking, I won't build with used rims period, and those aren't just used, they are ruined.

Thanks for the responses, guys. The majority has clearly spoken! I won't bother using this rim. I requested a refund of half of my total cost for the transaction from the seller, given that the other rim looks fine. Hopefully he is obliging. His description suggested looking at the photos and asking additional questions, as if he knew there was a problem with the rim from the start. However, there was only one photo with the light reflecting oddly off this rim that now shows that the issue was there, and no mention of structural damage.

I suspect he might try to say I should have asked, but honestly I do not think it shows integrity to put a rim up for sale that has structural damage and expect it to be the buyer's responsibility to find out. As I said, hopefully he is obliging. It's just $18.50.

Thanks for your feedback!

-Gregory

That is structural damage and should have been disclosed by the seller. You are being more than reasonable. I'm not a big returner/complainer when it comes to ebay purchases, but I draw the line at deception.

Not only is the rim damaged beyond usefulness, it wasn't a good one when it was brand new.

I just wanted to let people know that the eBay seller, Yesh999, accepted my request for a refund of $18.50, which was half of the cost of purchasing two of these rims, after I showed him the photos of the warped spoke holes. So I paid $18.50 for one good one, essentially, but have decided to allot both rims to tire stretching duties. I've already purchased another pair of NOS rims.

@noglider You would probably disapprove of the fact that I spent $100 on a NOS set of the same rims, but I got my heart set on the blue Fiamme labels, which match the blue Olmo nicely. What do you know of that was particularly bad about these rims in the first place?

Cheers!

-Gregory

[MENTION=444189]Kilroy1988[/MENTION], I don't disapprove at all!

Generally I found that Fiamme rims were soft and prone to going out of true and intolerant of high spoke tension.

Ha, well, your last point seems proven! Honestly, despite owning several nice vintage bicycles in the past, I've mostly ridden mid-range models with lackluster component groups, and this will be my first set of tubs. I imagine I won't be able to tell how soft they are even if they are. Cheers!

I prefer Fiamme reds to blues because they have ferrules, which IMO makes them more functional. Plain no ferrules rims can be fine though. Anyhow, I liked Fiamme reds just fine and they were my everyday rim for years. I found them tough enough and more or less similar to the other tub rims of the era at that weight. At any rate there were not any ~350g clincher rims to compare them to at the time... Certainly they were tougher than Rigida 1320.

I'd imagine more than a few sets of Blues and similar vintage rims have been ruined because the builder didn't use spoke washers. Most likely younger builders never heard of them. That could have been the case with the OP's rims.